Landlord states the building heats very well
The landlord states that he has owned this unit for 5 years and has never had any issues with heating. One pipe steam system - air vents on each radiator. Each radiator has a thermostatic trap on the supply line - the bellows are all still in place in all of the traps. No steam vent at the end of the main. No signs that this was ever a 2-pipe system. Unless all of the traps are failed in the open position, how would the steam ever enter the radiators? By the looks of it, the piping has been this way for a very long time. How has it worked like this for so long?
Near boiler piping is also incredibly incorrect but thats another story.
FYI - boiler is being replaced this week, removing all thermostatic traps and replacing with rad valves, replacing all rad steam vents, and adding steam vent towards end of steam main.
Located in the suburbs of Philadelphia.
Comments
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Philadelphia has more than its share of steam boilers piped by "good hot water men", which is NOT a compliment; but I have never seen anything like that. I don't see how it worked at all.
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Bburd1 -
I hope they don't have the same installer LMAO. As soon as you find out what make and model and size they are installing I'd download the installation manual and ride them like a hawk. Print out the near boiler piping and gas valve instructions and hang it in the basement lol.
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Haha, I am the new installer. Existing boiler is 275 sqft steam, oversized - current EDR is 105 sqft between all of the rads (small twin home - only 5 radiators). When my service tech was on site, I had him facetime me to confirm what he was telling me was accurate. I immediately called the landlord to ask if he has had any issues with the heating system to which he replied, "none".
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Me either. There has to be a second connection to the rad for it to work. That Trane B1 trap is way too small to do the job. Are all the rads like this?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
Now I don't know how much pressure a steam radiator trap can hold back in that configuration, they aren't normally used that way. I suspect the boiler's pressure pushed the steam by the trap.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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Not wanting to speak out of turn here;
I hope that they eliminate all the copper, install a skim port, install a double drop header, install a proper Hartford Loop with the shut off valve and dual immersed low water cut offs unless they use one autofill valve with the blowdown valve and a separate low water cut off.
I think It would be ideal if they made a Tee and union off the new pig tail so the pressuretrol and pressure gauge were at both ends of the Tee to allow easier cleaning of the pigtail.
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maybe if you crank the pressure up enough it forces the steam trap open. the riser is too small even if it weren't choked down by the seat in the steam trap and plugged by the element closing on the steam. the radiators must be filling up with condensate until the cycle ends too
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the Landlords full of $hit!
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Looks like a job that could keep you awake at night. Who knows what the trap will do if fed backwards
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Seems like an @ethicalpaul experiment to me. Although different traps may close and be capable of holding back different pressures.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Too specific of an experiment for me, and I only own a single trap π
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Well I saw the radiator and that yellow tubing in the last video and you say you have a trap, I figured it would be an easy experiment for you. You seem to have all the parts needed.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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Would someone please explain in layman's terms what the main problems are here?
I'm just curious.
Thanks!
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Let me preface this by saying I know zero about steam heat - am I'm not exaggerating that (although I'm fascinated by steam heat and read every thread about it).
But I remember a published story from a very old golf pro who commented on a golfer whose grip was wrong, his backswing was wrong, his downswing was wrong, his follow through was wrong, and yet he somehow managed to get the ball in the middle of the fairway almost every time. So I wonder if by some weird combination of mistakes if all these things so wrong somehow managed to provide a fairly decent working heating system? π
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The issue is that thermostatic traps allow air and condensate pass through, but not steam. When the steam hits the bellows, the alcohol content will expand and close the passageway. In this case, not allowing any steam to enter the radiator. So theoretically, none of the radiators should be heating (assuming that the traps are functional).
On a 2-pipe system, the trap is typically located on the outlet of the radiator. On start up, the air will vent through the radiator and expel out of the main vent which should be located on the end of the return main. When the steam enters the radiator and hits the thermostatic trap, the trap will close and lock the steam in the radiator until it gives off enough heat to condense back to a liquid. The condensed liquid will cool the trap off enough to open it and allow the condensate to return to the boiler.
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Ive seen countless systems that are piped incorrectly and still manage to heat. Whether they are working "efficiently" is a different story.
In this case, the only way that steam could possibly enter the radiators would be if all of the traps failed in the open position.
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I'd love to see this jobβ¦β¦β¦β¦β¦β¦..
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting3 -
Thank you so much! Now I see why this the general reaction to this is alarm and amazement.
I have no experience with thermostatitic traps, so now I know β thanks.
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Maybe the thermostatic elements in the traps have been removed.
But even then, the orifices the elements open and close are so small, I can't see how this arrangement would work on a one pipe system.
Maybe the orifices were drilled out to full pipe size?? Might be interesting to open some up and see what's, or what's not, inside.
Dennis Pataki. Former Service Manager and Heating Pump Product Manager for Nash Engineering Company. Phone: 1-888 853 9963
Website: www.nashjenningspumps.com
The first step in solving any problem is TO IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.
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so you could fix it, or just so you could laugh at it? π
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Fix it, of course.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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and a little laugh! π€£
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Maybe the traps are gutted and they are just using them as elbows. Began installing two pipe and then cheaped out and removed the guts?
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@JWalsh32 can you upload some pictures?
I never seen steam heating system.
When I was a kid (long time ago 30-35 years) I was on a diesel train in Northern part of Romania that had steam heating.
AND it was minus many degrees outside(so cold I remember that ride π).
Worked to keep us all passengers kind of warm , but nothing amazing...
Why is it used instead of liquid heating?
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On passenger trains steam heat is a legacy of steam engines. Steam from the engines would be piped through the passenger cars and condensate would be vented to the outside at the end of the train. When railroads went to diesel engines they were equipped with steam generators because all the passengers cars were already piped for steam heat. As the steam heated passenger cars were retired railroads switched to "head end power" in which electricity is supplied to the cars from the engine for heating and other things.
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@Gabriel82 " Why is it used instead of liquid heating? "
In my opinion Steam is so much better. So simple until the industry complicated things. I can (and have) run my old boiler from a battery. Running circulators takes a lot more AC power, useless when the the utility AC power is out in bad weather.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Because many years ago before electricity was popular they needed to heat buildings without power. Steam could do this with smaller radiators and smaller piping than water.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
2
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