Hartford loop set up .. done wrong or right?
Hello all,
I had my new boiler done a few months ago. I'm experiencing some problems like water hammer, radiator leaking among others.
A plumber told me The Hartford loop is incorrect and he's going to charge me a fortune to fix it. The loop is causing all the problems. I'm not sure I trust this guy.
Is this done wrong or right? Thank you.
Comments
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Not the best-looking Hartford loop I have seen but I guess it will work. Take a ruler and check the height off the floor to where the copper tubing comes out of the return tee. Then measure off the floor to the normal water level which is where the boiler MFG marks it or to the center of the gauge glass.
The copper tubing should be 2"-4" below the normal water level. Yours looks high but It could be the camera angle.
Post some pictures of the piping above and around the boiler so we can see if you have other issues.
Why not get the installer back if you need changes and not the plumber?
Did they measure your radiators when they sized the boiler? Did they skim the boiler.
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I am just a homeowner, not an expert. But the more I stare at that picture, the more I see things that concern me....
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Yeah it's wrong. Looks too high to me. As Ed says, the top of the Hartford should be 2 to 4 in. below the normal water line. Also that Tee should be a reducing tee with a Street elbow or a close nipple with an Elbow. With it that long you could get water hammer, especially with it probably being too high.
I don't think that is the right place to put the shutoff valve in the return which is to allow you to do a no return flush. I would put it in the vertical part just below the elbow in the Hartford.
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Wrong and may be the cause of the hammer
It looks like a 8" to 10" long pipe between the copper elbow and the Tee fitting
You want the pipe here to be as short as possible. A street elbow serves the same purpose as a Wye fitting or a close nipple.
Let me know if you liked the story.
Mr. Ed
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Listen to this story and you will hear the explanation of why your Hartford loop is wrong at about time stamp 4:24. I recommend you listen to the entire story but your info is at 4:24
And as the other ED said it might be too high. Two Eds are better than one
Hope this info helps with your repairs
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Let's see some pictures from a couple different angles of the header and the takeoffs from the boiler. There could be something wrong there too, if the installer did what he did with the Hartford Loop.
Just to make you feel a bit better, my installation is a S show in it's own right, being way too high. I have to keep water level higher because of this and monitor water quality like a hawk, along with too small riser and header etc. etc.
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Definitely looks like the Samsonite gorilla got drunk and threw pipe and fittings against the wall and then started putting that mess together.
Is the boiler power switch attached to an exposed ceiling joist?
Having the both the pressure gauge and pressuretrol obstructed by pipe is not safe in my opinion as you cannot simply look at them and you would become complacent and simply forget them.
Is this steam boiler gas fired? The power switch is not visible, is it at the front of the boiler behind a cover?
I hope the power is for the boiler is not direct wired in that junction box.
I hope you get that mess fixed. IN MY opinion a plumbing inspector may tag it because the pressuretrol and pressure gauge cannot be seen easily.
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I would have a Voodoo Doll of my installer but I'm not sure who it is. It may be my neighbor up the street but I'd have to put him on a polygraph to find out 🤣 I plan to fix my HL next off season. I swear lol.
Here is Dan Halohan's specific language in that video (thanks for bringing my attention to it again)
@1 :20 The wet gravity return line, which returns the condensate from the system, rises up from the floorto join the equalizer at a point about 2 in. below the boiler's lowest operating waterline.
@3 :34 The point where the loop connects to the boiler's equalizer is higher than the boiler's “crown sheet”, and that's what provides the safety.
@5 :07 Generally you should connect the close nipple about 2 in. below the bottom of the gauge glass, but check the boiler manufacturer's spec. on this. The centerline of the close nipple has to be below the waterline, but above the boiler's crown sheet. And don't install the close nipple 2 in. below thec enter of the gauge glass because that's probably too high. You see when the water leaves the boiler as steam the level in both the boiler and the equalizer will drop, If it drops below the close nipple, steam will push down through the equalizer into the wet return and create water hammer. This usually happens near the end of the firing cycle and it causes a very noticeable racket.
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do you have a picture of the entire install? Curious to see what the header looks like, based on what the other near boiler piping looks like it can't be pretty
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Here's a Dunkirk Oil Fired Steam Boiler install where they say centerline of Close Nipple is 2 in. below the
centerline of the bottom sight glass tappingwaterline. Much lower than most people seem to be installing them. It's a safety from dry firing (in the case of a leak in the wet return) for crying out loud, and the 2nd one in line after the LWCO fails. Seems to vary a lot by boiler manufacturer though which may be leading to confusion. Peerless says "Pipe the Hartford Loop such that the top of the close nipple is 2 to 4 inches below the boiler normal water line".0 -
@Captain Who (may be off topic here) These are the first pictures I've seen of your sight glass. You speak of monitoring your water quality, what do you have in that boiler that the water is so murky ? Have you ran it with just clean water in it ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
This is after I flushed and re-filled with clean pre-boiled distilled treated with Rectorseal 8-way. That's about the target color of light violet to medium violet (normal phenolpthalein pH indicator). 21 year old boiler and I'm not running it without treatment or lousy super hard tap water with high chlorides. It is running very good now with less than 1/4 in. of bounce in the sight glass (good for this boiler install) and no apparent carry over/wet steam issues. System very quiet now. Just a faint whisper from the vents with very little panting. pH seems to be 9.6 from Hydrion paper but I'm waiting for new batteries for my digital meter. The issue is that I have to keep my water level on the high side due to the improper Hartford Loop, which reduces my steam chest, especially with the 2 in. riser and header that was installed when it is supposed to be 2-1/2 in. (= 56% more cross sectional area) and the boiler is not level being tilted so that water level at the takeoff is about 1/2 in. higher than at the sight glass, and the header is tilted upwards towards the equalizer.
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@Captain Who has a nice project for this summer
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Polygraph machines are expensive even on eBay………oh……right…….ugggh don't remind me! 🤣
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you have to skim the boiler to get the oil out before it will work right, the sight glass is full of oil, it wasn't skimmed after it was installed. the piping isn't right but may be ok once you get rid of the oil so it isn't surging
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relief valve needs to have its discharge within 6" of the floor and not threaded
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