Repiping 1909 Gravity Hot Water System For House Move
The local church rectory house was purchased by a couple and must be moved.
It is 2 and a half story, 1340 sq feet each for two full floors and full basement.
1340 X 3 = 4020 sq feet.
In 2013 a Lochinvar KBN 106; 105,000 BTUH input was installed to replace a CI because of a bad chimney with no practical route to the roof.
There are 637 connected EDR, 14 original CI rads, 7 on each floor.
In the basement there are two 3" supplies and two 3" returns at the boiler. These decrease in size as takeoffs are connected. And of course both are sloped up from the boiler to the corners of the house. All insulated with asbestos which must be removed.
My guess is that the piping will be in the way of locating the house mover I-beams and must be removed.
The boiler is piped P/S with 1 1/4" IPS connected to the double 3" IPS.
Has anyone had to repipe a system such as this? Any simple solutions?
I could see someone convincing them to go to forced air and trashing the CI rads.
TIA
Comments
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If the pipes can be cut on the verticle and reinstalled after the move, that's an easier way to go. Otherwise a horizontal cut away and refit will be needed. Best to work with the house movers. They might have some ideas. For example, cribbing and blocking to save the piping.
Please don't let them trash the rads!
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Try to cut the connections to the risers in the basement such that you can thread a new fitting on then you can repipe with the material and topology of your choice. Even if the risers need to be replaced that will be less invasive than installing ductwork.
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My guess is that the only unions are at each rad. The insulation might be hiding some, but I doubt it.
One could remove the rad valves and drop the riser/runout.
It would be nice to have some zoning operation.
This, as other gravity systems I have seen, is split East side both floors and West side both floors.
Any ideas on some type of manifold system?
I am thinking that the basement IPS piping will most likely go away.
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Calling @EdTheHeaterMan …
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when you cut the runouts think about where you will be able to get back to a threaded joint to connect new mains or home run piping to. You could also replace the supply risers or possibly just cap the existing supply riser at the 1st floor and bring a new riser through the floor for the first floor radiator and feed the second floor with the existing risers. Anything is possible depending on budget.
In a pumped system 1/2" pex can probably feed one emitter, possibly a couple depending on how big they are. Pex is how I would reconnect, I would put a propex adapter on the existing and run pex either to a main or a manifold.
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I am old and always like to save stuff but I am learning my lesson the last few weeks. I think you will end up with a total re pipe in most cases especially if you want zoning.
Chances are the CI rads on the FF and 2d floor are on top of each other making zoning difficult.
First floor drop pipe or copper through the floor and connect with pex same for second floor. manifolds in the basement.
I am doing a 100 year old house rewire (partial). I have been wasting time trying to save some of the 1929 AC cable (BX). The terminations are shaky. If you strip the cable back it looks ok. So u j box it and then find the same thing on the other end. Probably could have cut some holes and pulled new wire in the time it take to screw around with J boxes and then you still have 100 year old wire. Not worth in in most cases unless you absolutely can't pull a new wire. In a couple more days I have to decide on a better plan and make a call.. I have pretty much rewired the 2d floor already a little bit more to finish that.
Its all the general use plugs and lights. DW, disposal, dryer, boiler, washer are probably ok
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after the move are you keeping it gravity or converting to circulators?
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The new owners live in another state. AFAIK they have not contacted a house mover, a basement digger/builder and are unaware of the abestoses.
This is to be their home when they come to visit the family, not sure.
I may be jumping the gun with this system thinking, but sitting here with a newly installed shoulder replacement and perhaps bored.
Also am supposed to be retired
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If the existing piping could remain intact for the move, then it could go back together like it is now.
It is actually a pumped system with P/S piping at the boiler.
But I am not about to deal with 3" pipe…..that would probably wreck the other shoulder.😥
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Is there asbestos on the risers in the walls or just in the basement? That could make things significantly more complicated.
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All the insulation is in the basement.
The second floor risers are visible outside the walls in the first floor rooms and connect to piping in the basement. Most are 3/4" and maybe one 1".
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if it is a "my first central heating" sort of retrofit of 100 years ago, repiping it should be straightforward unless they want to do better with the replacement.
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Supposed to be retired myself. But its for my nephew.
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Hope the shoulder goes ok. My sister is 79 and she had one shoulder done about a year and a half ago. Did a little therapy and is doing pretty good with it.
The things we do with 3' & 4' wrenches come back to haunt us in old age.
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Throw away all the 3" stuff in the basement. Cut the risers in a way that they can be threaded or you can get 1" and 3/4" MegaPress Adaptors so you don't need to throw away the risers to the second floor.
Make home runs with PEX back to the boiler room for the second floor. Make another set of home runs to the first floor using PEX directly connected to the Radiator valves and return bend unions. then cover the PEX with chrome pipe covers. As they go thru the floor.
With the proper manifolds you can actually take the time to balance rooms that over heat if needed.
That's what I would do.
If the home runs are too long because the house is that big, then you can put manifolds at each end of the basement for the first and second floor zones and end up with 4 zones
You certainly don't need 3" pipe for a pumped system.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks to everyone for replies.
I will be off line for a couple of days as now on the way to get surgery on the left hand for carpal tunnel repairs.
Must be getting old…..
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I'd go for new flexible pipes like pex or soft copper. I'd also investigate overhead distribution for supply if there's room for manifold in attic. If overhead is feasible then I'd think about abandoning CI rads for ceiling high panels. I'm a retro guy with nostalgia for CI rads but…..
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The perils of old age. I have carpal tunnell in both wrists and nerve entrapment in both elbows….among other things……. We should be sitting in the diner like the other old goats comparing medications and talking about our aliments.
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i'm only 51 and i feel like i should be doing that.
like i used to say, and amateur radio contact should include a signal report, a weather report and a description of a medical procedure.
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This is what my friends and I refer to as "the organ recital."
Resident in 25-unit co-op, Toronto, built in 1925. In self-defence,"expert" on our 2-pipe steam system.
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I agree with Ed the Heater Man. I've done several gravity to hot water as well as two pipe steam systems to hot water conversions. Just cut away all the main floor piping and replace up to the radiators with new thermostatic valves and pipe with PEX from a basement manifold so all are home-run devices from the boiler. As for the second floor carefully cut the black iron piping, clean the stubs well and use Mega-press fittings to adapt to PEX from a basement manifold. If the second floor risers serve specific rooms adding telestats to the basement manifold can serve as a means of controlling temperature. rather than trying to break and replace old piping at the upper radiators. Much depends on how upper radiators are connected and what fixtures need to be changed. With advances in thermostats there are now wireless radiant heat stats that communicate with basement receivers that can be used to cycle the telestats at the manifold for any locations were hard wiring is not possible.
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As the Rectory sits there with the heat on and is being emptied of 100+ years of records etc. The boiler has locked out the the red screen of MRHL.
Outlet temp outlet diff lockout. This has happened before on this KBN 106.
Funny that the temps shown are matching…..136/136.
Changing the outlet temp sensor (the 4 wire one) corrected this…so far.
The new owner has not contacted me concerning this project. They are one state away.
So the carpal tunnel repair was done 2 weeks ago. The burning in the hand is gone, but the thumb and forefinger are still numb. Don't know if this will get better or not.
The shoulder replacement PT is coming along. This was a reverse rebuild of the ball and socket. Fairly common now.
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PC, yes across from the school and next to the church.
It is to move less than 2 blocks to the east.
The actual move will be a major event for the village.
You did a home run system for your house IIRC?
This has a lot of bench height window CI rads, hopefully they want to save the system.
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I connected to existing piping and while it works great the large pipes are not fun for tall people. Knowing what I know now I would have piped a home run system back to a flow controlled manifold.
what’s the church planning for the lot? Purpose built administrative building?
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Talk of a social hall.
The school sits now little used with 10,000 sq feet, built in 1961.
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We appreciate all you old goats for your wisdom and vast knowledge on these old systems, we want you all here after you get done at the diner, please! 😁
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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We have to divide up the bill first and that will require another pot of coffee!
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we always break down at risers in joists. Run 2,3 or 4 sets of mains out from boiler and pick up risers in joists based on how we want it zoned. The mains usually run along center beam that way we can have them boxed in with beam. Usually 1” or so mains. Always gives us great control of balance when done. Always enjoyed these jobs. Pretty sure they will have to insulate to code which should allow your water temp to oversized radiators to come down a bunch,
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