Mystery water leak - excess water take up problem
Comments
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NH state law gives a home owner the right to do their own electrical work, in an owner occupied non-rental unit. However, the home owner's work has to comply with code. Local governments are allowed to require permits.
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I've had 3 people over today.
One appears to be what would be affectionately called a "knucklehead". Don't think that one is much help. Was threatened by my knowledge of steam heat. Didn't understand the leak test that I had done, even after a couple explanations. Asked me if I was a plumber, and why did I need him. I said I believed that I needed a new boiler, and would he quote me one. He didn't seem to trust or even acknowledge what I had told him. He was incredulous that I had calculated out the EDR, from measurements, and Dan's EDR book.
Second fellow had a minor reschedule due to an emergency, but then called and showed up. The second contractor gets it. He was quoting from our favorite book. He's read it multiple times, cover to cover. We had a nice chat. He understood the water fill test that I had done. He will get me a quote today, with some options. He indicated he had an opening on Monday, which is very good. He grew up with steam in his house.
The third contractor was decent. Actually showed up on time, which seems to be rare these days. Not sure he really is a steam person, but was amenable to various options. He has been in the business a while, knew all the players locally. ( I knew them as well.) Felt comfortable discussing things with him. Pretty sure he understood the implication of the water fill/leak check.
Hopefully I get two or more choices to evaluate.
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my guess is, it will be the price of the boiler plus 2x that price for labor.
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2 out of 3 isn't bad.
It makes you wonder how #1 even stays in business if he has a business. Sounds like #2 would be the better choice.
I would expect #2 would have a complete and detailed quote although it may not be the lowest price.
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Shot in the dark here for a very temporary solution…. If you remove the jacket as others have said, maybe you can find the exact source of the leak to add some Hercules Boiler Liquid if the leak isn't all the way at the top.
Maybe it is an inch above the normal water line. You could add the Boiler Liquid and fill it just pass the leak and get a few more days/weeks out of it. Might seal it up enough to limp by.
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Beats me what boilers cost these days. I know what an install cost in 2013 though.
I think #1 up sells on maintenance plans. To some extent they are good, especially if the home owner cannot attend to some maintenance. But the guy that #1 sent, seemed to be taken aback by what I was saying. Oh well, you'd think they have heard it all by now…
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Thanks for the suggestion. There one panel that I could open, without piping interference, maybe something is visible there? I'll check the installation manual, just to check that nothing weird will happen if I loosen those screws.
Don't think the leak is near the normal water line. I had to fill it above the sight glass and nearly to the steam exit port (at the top) before I saw any water coming out from the block. I filled the boiler slowly, mostly because I didn't want a flood, but to get a rough idea where the leak might be. The water level was pretty high.
In any case, I will have to limp by. At best, maybe, with some good luck, I could get an install as early as Monday. It will be 4F tonight, so that boiler's going to be working hard. Hope the boiler retains enough steam (the hole doesn't open up) to keep the house warm. I have some electric heaters, I'm going to set them to 63F or so, just in case.
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I'm in MA and it is scheduled to be 3F tonight. Murphy's law right? Boilers never fail in spring when it is 60F out! Perhaps you can set your thermostat low as you can to try and make it work as little as possible. 55F, 55F, 60F?
Leave the water faucets on a trickle (hot and cold) as moving water doesn't tend to freeze as fast. Save the space heaters for the areas where pipes have a history of freezing.
Last suggestion…If your boiler cycles on pressure, meaning when it runs it eventually hits the pressuretrol limit… try and lower that limit if you are comfortable doing so. I see yours is set at 2psi which is correct. Perhaps others who know that pressuretrol model can comment on if it can reliably be set lower.
Lower pressure might help it from losing steam as fast. Food for thought.
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Good idea on the trickling water, will have to remember that tonight. Those space heaters are going where we had a freeze up. (-17F night, howling wind too! Other than that, never had a freeze.)
I don't know if it's cycling on pressure at this point. Don't have a low pressure gauge on this boiler. Previous one I had installed a 3 psi gauge. With a 30psi gauge, you can barely tell if it has moved off the peg.
Think I am set at about 1psi (or 1.5) with a 0.5psi differential, might be a parallax error or camera angle that makes it seem higher.
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Installing and piping the boiler correctly according to the manufacturer’s instructions is extremely important on a steam boiler. They are the MINIMUM standard. Two risers with a drop header is an upgrade that’s well worth it as it will assure dry steam is sent to the system.
Make sure that whoever you select guarantees that they will at least pipe it per the manufacturer’s instructions as well as do the initial skimming.
Also make sure it’s done in black iron - no copper above the water line.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
leaks like that usually form slowly, it likely was leaking all of last season at least and was unnoticed until it started losing huge amounts of water. If you can get to where it is leaking some jb weld and a wire brush and maybe a metal plate could probably keep it going for a few weeks to months. Could probably pack some lead wool in the leak too.
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I got a price from contractor #2, a steam guy. Seems reasonable, and not that much more expensive than what it cost in 2013. What's unreasonable is the fact it croaked to begin with. But this is not the fault of #2.
I'm going to sleep on it. And ask a couple of questions of him. Haven't heard from #3 yet, that gentleman said it would be tomorrow. Will decide what to do hopefully tomorrow morning.
Need to get this fixed. This heating plant stuff has already prevented me from visiting family, which makes me unhappy.
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Since the boiler is shot take some tin snips to the jacket or whatever you have to do to remove the jacket and find the leak. It can't hurt to try, and you have nothing to lose.
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you can just cut it and bend it where there are pipes in the way if it makes you feel better if you put it back when you're done.
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it doesn't look like the top of the jacket is trapped by the piping and that is where i'd start looking.
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Looking at the parts diagram, the block is 100% covered by the canopy/blower assembly. It would seem that a total disassembly would be required. I'm not willing to do that in this winter season.
I take apart cars and work on them. I can machine things, I have a lathe and a mill and welder. I repair all sorts of things. But I also know when to hire someone for things that I can't or am unwilling to do. This appears to be one of them, especially since it's cold now. It's currently 17F with a 20mph wind and cooling down to 3F or 4F, depending on which weather server you use. I feel the risk is too high for me to pull it off. Could I do it? Probably, if I don't break something.
Will I risk a frozen home to try this? Not a chance. Now if I had done something similar in the past, maybe I'd give it a try. Having seen a frozen home before and what it looks like up close, and knowing that it only took 24 hours to cause over 30K in damage, (that was in 1980 dollars) I'm hiring someone. Someone who has done it before. I have never seen such devastation in a home. Boiler block frozen and split, washing machine cracked open, toilets burst, dishwashers ruined, pipes burst, ice on the walls and floor. Wallboard and plaster ruined. And this over powering feeling of being in a frozen tomb, where all the heat was being sucked out of your being. It was cold in there. It felt so much colder than outdoors. It was ghastly. Wasn't my house, it was my grandparents. Anyways, it made a deep impression on me.
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I agree the top isn't trapped. As noted in the previous post, the block is covered by a canopy assembly. This is getting in deeper than I am comfortable with. In the spring, summer or fall, I'd give it a try. With the wind blowing and the temperature dropping rapidly (now at 16F), I'm not willing to try, especially tonight.
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are you in michigan because that is what seemed to be happening on my ride home from work just now.
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No, I live in New Hampshire. Oh, the temperature has dropped another degree, it's 15F now and falling rapidly. Hence my not wanting to disturb a working, albeit barely alive, heating system.
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I want to make a point of thanking everyone for their suggestions. I think all of them were good ideas to try. Not all of them are within my skill set, or confidence level, but all are greatly appreciated. My apologies if it appeared I didn't like or valued your suggestions. This is not the case. I think this is a valuable community providing a great service to people.
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