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Mystery water leak - excess water take up problem

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bdl
bdl Member Posts: 65

It's been a long time since I've posted. Apparently long enough that my login disappeared. Live in an old house with 1 pipe steam for the past 38 years. It's mostly been good, with occasional disasters, like LWCO failing and things like that.

Have an issue with excess water feed into my boiler the past month. At the same time, our HTP indirect water heater started to fail due to corrosion and was leaking. We had the HW heater replaced the other day. It seems this has not fixed the problem. The boiler was filled yesterday. This morning it was low, and activated the auto water feeder.

The boiler is a Burnham Independence PV Gas fired. Model number IN6PVSNI_M2? It was installed in January 2013.

I've checked the Gorton vents and they seem ok. The house seems to heat normally. Radiators are relatively well balanced. Can't see any obvious evidence of a leak. I realize it could be the block leaking, but I'd like to do my due diligence finding any other possible sources of water leakage. Wouldn't want to replace the boiler if it wasn't warranted.

When the boiler is firing for hot water, I see the exterior vent looks normal. If calling for heat and steam is being generated, I believe I see more moisture (clouds). This leads me to believe it could be a boiler failure. The boiler has never run dry.

So where are primary leaks usually found? What do they look like? I haven't seen any water leaks at the boiler itself, at least not on the exterior. Presume I looking for evidence of active corrosion? Anything other clues?

I do have a spot that I will check - it's inside a wall. Foolish plumber used copper for the steam line. That failed in under 5 years. I removed the line and re-soldered it. Maybe it has failed again due to the thermal cycling stress. (That's why the dead men used iron.) I'll check that today, maybe it failed again. The first time it failed, however, there was significant signs of moisture, right now there hasn't been anything observably obvious.

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Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,824

    If you’re seeing white smoke from the chimney, you probably have a leak in the boiler block above the water line.

    Turn the boiler off and temporarily fill it to the top of the block. If you see water then, it’s leaking and needs replacing.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    EdTheHeaterManmattmia2
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,491
    edited December 2

    I looked at your other posts for pictures of your boiler. There are none. So I might suggest that you post some photos of your boiler with the near boiler piping. That waay we can look at the poorly installed copper header and connections to your radiator system.

    If there are no swing joints (which are not easy to do with copper) the constant stress of expanding and contraction pipes connected to the boiler may separate the sections enough for the push nipples to loose their machined fit seal. This may be a warranty leak if presented properly to Burnham. (don't show the bad piping job in the photos to Burnham)

    If you get a new boiler or boiler block you can correct the poor piping job with a properly steel pipe and iron pipe fittings perhaps with a drop header for better quality (Dry) steam going to your radiators.

    Post some pics here

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    I had to create a new profile to post. My account was lost to the ages. Can't even find what my ancient credentials were. I've sought advice here before. Learned about lots of things, including balancing steam systems. Have several steam books, including one from Dan. Learned about EDR and all that, just to get a working running stable system that behaved well.

    The near boiler piping is nearly all iron pipe. The copper line was in an extension at the far end of the house. I added a radiator to a bathroom, because it was a tad too cold there in the winter. Like 5-8 degrees colder than the bedroom. My plumber, who smelled like maryjane at times, put in copper from the far end of the main to the radiator. This was decades ago. Like I said, I had to replace it due to his poor workmanship. His solder joints didn't even wick all the way around, never mind flow into the socket joint. Mine were soldered correctly.

    When this 2013 boiler was put in, I asked for a drop header. I showed the installer (not the MJ plumber) a picture from Burnham, and he did it. It's not exactly what most here recommend, but the installer did not want to deviate from a Burnham diagram. This old piping system has a bull head tee, but the devil you know is often better than the devil you don't. Besides, that would have required a whole lot more money.

    I checked the copper lines while the system was building steam a few minutes ago. I don't see any evidence of leaks, at least where it enters the wall from the basement. Like I said when the copper failed previously, it was wet there. It is not wet.

    Surprisingly, can't find any photos of this system. I will go take a couple. Be back soon. I'll need to set up a light there, it's a bit gloomy today.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Ok, a couple of pics.

    PXL_20251202_170438409.jpg PXL_20251202_170519801.jpg PXL_20251202_170614769.jpg

    Have a few more, if needed.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Seems one of them doesn't view for me. I did three. I see two.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Lets try a zip file with all the photos. Don't know if this is over the limit for photos.

    Hope that helps some. It does have a drop header, but it's only in the size of the steam tapping. I think it lost almost one inch in the sight tube that last firing. Has to be a huge leak.

    We were going to go away in a couple days to see our kids. Now, I'm not so sure. :(. Think I need to be looking for a contractor. Darn, really bad timing.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Down by the burner, there's no evidence that there was water. Cracked/clogged tubes near the top in the boiler?

    Water/dampness is due to the HW heater change out. It's slowly drying out in the pit.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    If it helps, way back in 2006, I calculated the EDR of the radiators to be 404.1. Also calculated the volume of the steam lines. I did the individual lines, their diameters and run lengths. It also seems I forgot to sum them all up! I have a notebook with all my chicken scratchings and sketches in it.

    I have Dan's book on the Lost Art of Steam Heating and the EDR book & Linhardt's Field Guide to Steam Heating. Also have "Balancing Steam Systems" by G.Gill & S.Pajek. I've found all of them to be quite helpful over the years.

    I do know that when it was -17F and the wind was blowing one really cold night, a few years back, the current boiler couldn't keep up and we got frozen water pipes. That doesn't happen often (once in 38 years) but it wasn't much fun either.

    However, the water intake back then was minimal. It has gotten a lot worse in the past month.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,491

    Those photos are great. It appears that you are properly piped with a drop header. and the swing joint is fine allowing for pipe and boiler expansion to happen separately as the boiler heats, then the header pipes, then the main pipes, then the radiators. The insulation is done properly also so I cant see if the header is copper or steel/iron. I might think that you have a leak in a copper fitting but that doesn't explain the white exhaust smoke. (Perhaps a new Pope?)

    There are vinyl fitting covers available for those insulation elbows and tees. Check this place out https://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/pvc-fittings/

    I would try to fill the boiler with water as suggested by @Ironman. If there is a leak above the water line that will show you with water spilling out the boiler leak and ending up on the floor. You may need an inspection mirror to find it inside the cast iron block. Or you could remove the metal jacket covers

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,283

    Unfortunately, Burnham Independence doesn't have the best track record. I would fill the boiler with water until you feel the supply header get cold as @Ironman mentioned.

    The boiler does not have to be cold to do this, but I would not do it with the boiler red hot. You could have a leak above the water line. Any leak should be self evident.

    You could post your location and look for a steam contractor in "find a contractor" on this site"

    When totaling up your EDR for a potential replacement just add up the EDR of the radiation. Do not add anything for piping or pick up. Compare the EDR to the boiler nameplate in square feet of steam. The pickup factor is already added in.

    ethicalpaul
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    I'm in Nashua, NH. The EDR I posted is based on Dan's book, for 7 radiators, and calculated for 3 radiators, using the instructions, based on the size, length and number of tubes. I got 404.1.

    The boiler says it is 454 sq feet of steam. So it's not a horrible mismatch with the EDR. I made sure of that last time. (2013).

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    you have to flood the boiler as @Steamhead said and see if it leaks out above the water line. If the lwco and feeder are working it should be ok for a few days, it didn't just start leaking yesterday.

    bdl
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    There are only two companies listed in NH, in Find a Contractor, and neither have descriptions that seem to indicate they know anything about steam. I had a licensed master plumber do my HW heater, and it was very clear he knew NOTHING about steam. His ideas about pressure, and even his terminology, meant to me he would not be a good candidate for the job. He was very nice, and he did a good job on the HTP indirect heater replacement, but he knew nada about steam. I'd like someone who knows more than me, a lot more, because my knowledge is really restricted to some book learning, and the school of hard knocks…

    I'll search some more for a contractor.

    When I figure out how to do this, I'll try "slowly" over filling the boiler to look for a leak. I suppose this would be the confirming test. There's no underground returns, or anything like that. It's all in plain view. (By figuring out, I mean, how do I get rid of the water from the boiler, once the test is over…)

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    just drain it out the boiler drain until the level is right in the sight glass. fill it until you feel the riser get cold just above the boiler

    bdl
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    A few days, I'm comfortable with, 2-1/2 weeks, not so much. My grandparents house froze up when they went in Florida. I visited their house after it froze. Pretty much everything was ruined, boiler block broken, pipes broken, ice everywhere, washing machine, toilets, dishwasher, you name it, totally wrecked. Made an impression on me.

    Knock on wood, the LWCO and water feeder are still working. But, if you've lived long enough, or you are a contractor, you've seen them fail, I have. I've had multiple LWCO failures, some benign, some catastrophic. Burned out the o-rings on a Weil McLane, due to the LWCO failing and the block going red.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Well, it leaked when filled past the sight tube. I couldn't tell exactly where, but water came out. The steam pipes really never got cold, like tap water. I dribbled the water in the beginning, for quite a while, so as not to shock the cast iron. After 10 minutes of filling I sped it up a little. Roughly 15 minutes into this, I saw some water down near the burners. Turned off the fill and started the drain down.

    Well, that's a bummer, and a relief. At least I know what the problem is. Darned boiler only lasted about 12 years and 11 months, that's not very encouraging.

    Have to find someone who knows steam.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,491

    Can you look up your warranty? some steam boilers have 20 years other have 10 years. you may get a new boiler block for free if it is covered.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • patrykrebisz
    patrykrebisz Member Posts: 44

    Now that you know you have a "dead" boiler, take top covers off to see if you can see where the leak is. Some can be fixed. Moreover you will know how bad it is. How often do you have to fill it with water? There might be more life to this boiler than you think.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Their standard warranty is 10 years (as of 2024). I will look to see if I have an earlier copy of it. Maybe it is better.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    That would be a stretch for me, especially on an active boiler. I still need heat. These heat exchangers are thin tubes typically. You can get a brush in, for cleaning, but I can't imagine trying to seal one in such a confined area. I have the installation manual, but it's not obvious how to disassemble when all the pipes are attached! Can't move the sheet metal very far.

    I have to fill now every 2-3 firings. Losing a lot of steam to the great outdoors. Not very efficient.

  • patrykrebisz
    patrykrebisz Member Posts: 44

    Filing water every 2-3 firing is a LOT.

    I had to refill mine every 2nd day.
    I had 2-3in holes in mine! (after i starter touching it). Thankfully, it was on flat surfaces that i could tap to attach new metal plates to:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1866987

    In some ares, JB Weld would work, that said, with your re-fill frequency, it seems you have a hole, not just a leak.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Well, it's not such a big hole that my radiators at the end of the house don't get hot. Thank goodness that steam doesn't need much pressure to heat well. An ounce or two is all that is needed.

    Eventually, and maybe very soon, that hole will get large enough to have 0 ounces of pressure in my pipes. Have to make a lot of calls tomorrow.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,283

    @bdl

    I will give you my opinion and that is all it is. Go with Weil Mclain or Peerless. Stay away from Burnham and any of their re branded names like Crown.

    Burnham came into the northeast (I am in MA.) big time in the 80s and 90s & 2000s. The schools were putting them in like crazy and all the installers were pushing them. They must have had good prices because they were taking every commercial job.

    They (Burnham) blamed the water (chlorides) everywhere but eastern MA and RI were the worst. They also talked about some portion of the heat exchanger which had hot flue gas on one side and no water on the other.

    My problem with them is ok, steam boilers can fail but hot water should go 30 years or more. Well, theirs didn't. I saw job after job with hot water boilers leaking after 10-15 years. I know of a high school with 5 Burnhams built in 2002 and they were all replaced when I retired in 2019 and most of them leaked long before they were replaced. JMHO

    Your not that far into NH. I am sure there are some MA contractors with NH licenses. Search around some of the MA border towns. The boiler is shot so ripping the jacket off to find the leak you have nothing to lose. You may be able to slap some JB weld on it to buy some time. Weil McLain EG-50 is 454 sq feet of steam and Peerless 63-04 is 458

    ethicalpaul
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Well I've owned 3 boilers in 38 years, so none of them have lasted that long. Had a Weil McLane fry itself and burn out it's o-rings, a Burnham V8 do something similar (LWCO failure) boiler went to red heat and eventual failure, and this Burnham Independence PV. At least the Independence hasn't yet failed catastrophically.

    All that aside, I need a reasonable solution to the problem, or what I have to call, my least bad option. I need to compare the cost of a one for one replacement, even though it stinks, against a better unit, and all the associated costs to get there. (Re-line a chimney would be needed for a regular boiler. And I would then lose the use of an antique coal stove in our family room, because two flues cannot fit in my chimney.)

    What complicates things for me, is I hope to sell my home and move closer to my children. This means I have no interest in a top shelf system, built to last, because I want to move in a year or two. So it needs to be good enough to work, and keep me warm, and last roughly through it's warranty. There's no need for me to personally warrant it any longer. Certainly the seller of my new home to be won't do that for me either.

    I certainly get the lack of Burnham love, I've suffered two Burnham failures. At some level I don't care, because I'm going to sell my home. I'm trying to minimize what I put into this home, so I have some reserve in the new one, when things "fall apart" there.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,491

    @ethicalpaul has a Peerless that is going to last him 50 years. His is grandkids will get heat from that boiler if it were up to him. Distilled water and water quality issues are all addressed in his several videos on how he installed it and cares for it.

    You too can have a long lifetime boiler.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ethicalpaul
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    I'd feel a lot different if I was going to stay here, but I won't be. I'm selling this house in the next year or so. Putting in a nice system, I'd entertain in my next and likely last house, not this one. All I need now is something adequate. I can't afford to subsidize the next owner, nor will I receive a higher price for the home with a nicer heating system. So there is zero need for a lifetime boiler for this property at this point.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,283
    edited December 3

    Whatever your are going to install will cost you the same $$$ pretty much. Toss another Independence in if you want.

    That way you don't have to worry about the install. Any decent plumber should be able to cut and paste……………………………..you would think.

    And if you install the same boiler and your controls, low water cut off, pressure control etc are ok you can just buy the CI replacement block and save some $$$

    really sucks to have this happen in the winter with a boiler that young.

    Unfortunately, that is Burnhams MO

    ethicalpaul
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    I don't really want to put in an Independence, but, I'm kind of stuck. Using anything else, I think would require a chimney reline at this point. That would increase the price and stretch out the schedule.

    To the best of my knowledge, everything else is fine and working. Is it worth having a contractor replace the CI block? Would it be significantly less money, including labor? Or just a wash? I'd need a pretty skilled contractor, correct? Burnham trained?

    Unless cheap enough, I'd go with a new unit. In either case, I'd have to hold my nose.

    I have two different contractors coming in tomorrow for quotes. We'll see what they say. Maybe there's some more options. No matter what, I need to get it replaced with something.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    why wouldn't the new independence also require the chimney be repaired?

    ethicalpaul
  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    If it's an Independence PV, (power vent) then it can reuse the already installed vent.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Got a third contractor to come tomorrow. Will be a busy day. One of them is a "preferred contractor" listed by Burnham. I'll ask if it a replacement of just the cast iron block is plausible.

    Hopefully between the three contractors there is something that makes sense.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    You can put a power venter on other manufacturers' boilers but that is a nontrivial additional cost.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    I was going to ask if there was a DIY option, but I stopped myself. I want this to have some sort of "regulatory" approval, by some agency. DIY won't do that, and may detract value from the house, even though it works.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    In many jurisdictions homeowners can pull a permit. though it probably requires a permit in your jurisdiction, replacing the block without a permit would raise fewer questions than replacing the whole boiler.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    A replacement boiler may not require a permit. Repairs/replacement similar in nature usually are not permitted. Like replacing shingles on a roof. No permit required. A total new heating installation would require a permit. In any case, the contractor needs to contact the city for all that stuff, as required. I should verify what I said, by calling the city, as they are the relevant authority. When we get closer, I'll do just that. We will pull all the required permits, they are a tiny part of the job.

    Any movement of gas line plumbing or additions to gas lines, definitely require a permit (and inspection plus a leak test). They are quite serious about that in my city. About 10 years ago, down the street a bit, there was a house explosion from NG. No one there, no one hurt. House was flattened, due to all the walls rapidly leaving the foundation at once. Not complaining about any gas permits, after seeing the aftermath of that.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    Reroofing or replacing a boiler requires a permit in most jurisdictions.

  • bdl
    bdl Member Posts: 65

    Not in my city, at least for a roof. I asked. They said no permit required, as long as you are not changing your roof line.

    However, it wouldn't surprise me at all for for a boiler… Will find out soon enough.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,283

    If I was just changing the block I would skip the permit if using the old jacket they would have no way of knowing.

    I never heard of anyone getting a permit to swap a section either

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,194

    technically you're supposed to get a permit to replace a receptacle

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,026

    I did too. All of NJ made roof replacements not need a permit. Someone got paid to make that happen LOL

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el