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Minimum temperature of a hydronics boiler

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MartyGM
MartyGM Member Posts: 8

Hello, My name is Marty and I just joined. I have a 1940 home with a 1992 Peerless Hydronic System. I have two zone valves for the entire home. I also have a temp gauge on the copper pipe that is going back into the boiler. It is set at around 160 degrees. I notice, however, that when I turn my thermostat down or lock the zone valve to "on", that the boiler does not kick in at all. I checked the temp gauge wire on the incoming pipe, and found that it is totally disconnected. One of the guys that came and checked my furnace did that. So, the tank actually just keeps getting colder and colder, until i turn the thermostat back up. Shouldn't the tank keep at least some warm temp, while the thermostat is not up? Also, as soon as the thermostat clicks back off, the zone valve closes, so NO water flows to the radiators anymore, even if the water is still really hot on the other side of the zone valve… This seems like a waste of nice hot water to me. But I don't know much about it yet. I ordered the book, "Classic Hydronics". : ) Do I need to get that temp gauge hooked back up, and where would I attach the wires? Thanks so much!! Marty

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,586

    I am thinking that what you are calling a temperature gauge is not a gauge but a Aquastat if there are wires going to it. The tank is actually your boiler.

    So you don't need the maintain a minimum temperature in the boiler unless the boiler also makes your domestic hot water by way of a tankless coil. Do you have a separate water heater?

    You are describing a cold start boiler and that is a normal way to set up a boiler. there is no reason the burn fuel all year long just on the chance that you might want heat in the radiators on July 5th or September 22 or even February 14. The thermostat in the room will let the burner know if it needs to heat the water so your radiators can heat your home. You can have a cold start boiler.

    What you don't want is to operate the boiler so the return water is below 135° for hours of operation. You want that return water to get to 135° within a few minutes of operation. (like maybe 10 minutes)

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,638

    There are someb thermal purge options, but the heat that is left in the boiler goes into the space where the boiler is located. A portion goes up the flue, a vent damper can limit that flue loss if it has one

    What type of heat emitters? Copper fin tube or cast radiators?

    Copper fin tube doesn’t need a boiler temperature protection valve

    Cast iron radiators may if the boiler doesn’t warm up within 10 minutes or so.

    Depending on the type of zone valve, some will trigger the boiler on when manually pushed to open, others do not

    A pic of the boiler piping and valves would explain more

    If it has been running since 1992?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,647

    it would seem it must have had a tankless coil or indirect or hot water zone or something like that at some point if someone went to the trouble of installing a low limit aquastat.

  • MartyGM
    MartyGM Member Posts: 8

    Thanks so much, Edward, for your feedback and great info!

    My water heater is separate from this boiler, so it looks like i don't need that temp gauge hooked up. So, I must have a cold start boiler, that you mentioned.

    I have run the boiler and it took about 15 to 20 minutes to get to 135 degrees. Does that work?

    Thanks again!

    Marty

  • MartyGM
    MartyGM Member Posts: 8

    Thanks, Bob, for your input!

    My thought on the heat loss is, what if i got the boiler up to around 140, and let the home heat up nice, and then turn it down to our regular "61" degrees, (since our gas company tells us that we are using more gas than most neighbors), and then run downstairs and open the zone valve manually, so that it still circulates the hot water for awhile. Would that keep the pipes hotter longer? Just a thought…

    I have cast iron radiators in all of the home except fins aboive and below the floor in the kitchen, (it was added on to the home around the 70s)

    The boiler took like 20 minutes to get to 135.

    When my Honeywell zone valves click on, they open the water flow and also start the boiler.

    Here are some pics I just took, if that helps. And yes, it has been running since 92.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,638

    It looks like someone has added a temperature control on the return piping? See below pic. But is has been disconnected inside?

    I suspect that added control maybe kept the pump off if the return temperature dropped below 130? That is one method for boiler protection.

    The general rule of thumb is for the boiler return temperature to rise above 130F within 10 minutes of run time. But your 20 minute in not a deal breaker, if that is measured at the return, not the boiler temperature gauge?

    The building, lifestyle, and your desired ambient temperature is what drives the fuel bill. It not so easy to compare neighbor houses.

    Also you want to look at fuel consumption over the years, your fuel provider may have that available online? Fuel costs have been going up, as such the monthly bill goes up.

    You do not have a vent damper on that boiler, so a portion of the heat energy you paid for is going up the flue, when the boiler is off. I don't know if that could be added, a question for Peerless. I would rather that then a purge system.

    Screenshot 2025-12-02 at 9.25.16 AM.png Screenshot 2025-12-02 at 9.25.43 AM.png

    https://naturalgasefficiency.org/for-residential-customers/vent_dampers/

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • MartyGM
    MartyGM Member Posts: 8

    Hi Bob,

    No, the added temp control on the return piping is NOT connected.

    At this point, I do not have a temp gauge for the boiler return temp. All I have is the boiler temp gauge on the tank, so that is the gauge that took 20 min to get to 135 degrees. Do I need to install a temp gauge in the incoming pipe, just before the tank?

    As far as our lifestyle, my wife suffers a bit… LOL I can live in a house that is around 63 or 64 degrees all the time, but she wears a few layers of clothes. We do that because we are told that we use the most gas in our neighborhood.

    I am not sure of how much gas I used over the years, but this is at least the cost of the highest month each year:

    02/27/2025

    $199.18

    02/27/2024

    $175.91

    02/28/2023

    $206.95

    02/25/2022

    $194.67

    03/01/2021

    $153.68

    02/27/2020

    $128.10

    Would a vent damper be worth installing? I am not completely sure how to purge the system. I have drained air out of some of the iron radiators, but that's about it.

    Thanks much!!

    Marty

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,781

    Several things can cause excessive gas usage. An Oversized boiler. Excessive leakage. On and On.

    1st thing id do is get a blower door test performed and find out where the heat is going. These can run $250 - $500. Some utilities will pay all or part of this. Find and Fix the leaks.

    Then get the boiler sized properly.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,638
    edited December 3

    unless some upgrades have been made, a 1940 home may not be well insulated ar sealed

    An energy audit that included a blower door and an infrared scan would show all that. In some cases the gas company may have an audit program

    Www.dsireusa.org may show programs offered to audit the home

    it is always the home that dictates most of the heating costs.

    The important number is the amount of gas you get for that monthly bill, how much you pay per therm and if there are additional costs

    I would not suspect the boiler is grossly oversized if it runs long cycles to heat up?

    Getting rid of the tankless coil will help, contact Peerless or their rep in the area about a damper addition

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • MartyGM
    MartyGM Member Posts: 8

    Hi Bob,

    What model is a good, cheap temp gauge for the boiler return pipe?

    I wasn't aware that I have a tankless coil in the boiler. Do you see that in a picture?

    I will check on a damper for the flu.

    Thanks

    Marty

  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,294
    edited December 28

    I have four of these clip-on pipe thermometers mounted on the supply and return pipes of our two boilers, and they are accurate enough for your purposes. I have checked calibration with an infrared "gun" type thermometer.

    For best results, get some thermal conductive paste and smear it on the contact surface of the thermometer. That ensures good contact with the pipe and better accuracy.

    Tell us how many square feet your house is, and if it has any thermal upgrades like double-pane windows, more insulation, etc. You said it was circa 1940, so if it has original windows and insulation, it's probably fairly leaky. I think I saw a boiler service label that said Boyertown PA, which tells us where your house is and what assumptions to make about the local climate for heating calculations.

    MartyGM
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,638

    This is my favorite temperature gauge. It displays both temperatures and captures hi and lows. Battery and or 24VAC powered

    Screenshot 2025-12-28 at 8.52.46 AM.png Screenshot 2025-12-28 at 8.53.42 AM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,621

    Your gas bills do not seem that bad. Where are you located?

    What I did with my boiler was to mount a strap on aquastat to bypass the circ relay. When the stat was satisfied the burner shut down and I kept the circ on until the boiler cooled to 125 or so. It would overshoot the stat about 1 degree.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,638

    It would be interesting to know how many BTU you actually "scavenge" by post purging the block? A BTU meter or data with flow and differential temperatures could be used to calculate that.

    The water in the block and heat in the cast iron mass is what you are trying to harvest.

    In your case it seems the short cycles elimination are more of the quest?

    With a well insulated buffer tank, thermos bottle, you store those additional BTU to use as needed.

    This eliminates room temperature over-shooting, which increases room heat loss, that you noted, or dropping ambient too low before the next heat available cycle.

    It's more of a piping or mechanical fix compared to your custom control approach.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,294
    edited December 29

    As for post purging the boiler, I'll mention that I've been running a one-year experiment with post purging our two WGO-5 boilers in a gravity conversion heating system from a typical end-of-burn water temp of 140 degrees or so down to 90 degrees, and I haven't been able to measure a statistically meaningful effect on fuel consumption.

    I'm doubtful it's helping much since we would normally get continued gravity circulation after boiler shutdown, and the post purge is simply adding some additional force to the gravity flow, thereby speeding up the process somewhat. When I proposed trying the post purge last year, some pros here were skeptical that the juice would be worth the squeeze, and the data so far suggests they were probably right. If there is a fuel savings in our application, it's so small as to be swamped by the noise in the data.

    hot_rod
  • fentonc
    fentonc Member Posts: 339

    @jesmed1 - I think for a post-purge to meaningfully help, you need all of the following to be true:

    • Boiler that is not located such that heat given off by it meaningfully heats the conditioned space (i.e. those BTUs are 'wasted')
    • Large fraction of BTUs stored in the boiler and its surroundings vs the distribution system located in the conditioned space (so high mass boiler with low-mass distribution system like fin-tube)
    • Short calls for heat (so very high heat output vs actual heat loss), such that only a small fraction of injected heat is actually required to satisfy the call for heat.
    jesmed1
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,294

    @fentonc That sounds right, and we're 0-for-3 on the conditions you listed, so not a surprise that post purge doesn't appear to be doing anything for us.