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Most reliable heating system for a home unattended for up to 3 months in winter.

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arcticman
arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33

We have been shutting our house down while we snowbird for the past several years. (No heat, DW winterized with RV antifreeze,  boiler and zones drained and purged)

Our existing oil boiler is a 30 year old Weil McLain P-WTGO-5 that has been pretty reliable but I do not trust it to leave unattended for months at a time. Occasionally it would trip and need to be reset manually.  Also our home is remote and can be difficult to access should something go wrong.

We would like to not have to shut down the house every winter and keep the house heated year round to enable us to return at any time during the winter without the process of winterizing and un-winterizing.

Our options for heating are oil, propane and electric. (electric alone would be very expensive)

Are there systems that can be monitored remotely and reset remotely if necessary to restart the system?

We also have frequent power outages… the system would need turn back on automatically when power is restored.

We’re considering installing an Energy Kinetics System 2000 but are open to other options as well.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks  

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,342

    The simple boiler that you want can no longer be manufactured due the the energy efficiency requirements. if you can find someone that will be happy with converting a new boiler from electronic ignition to a standing pilot system that uses a pilot generator that requires no electricity to operate the burner. Of course the circulator pump(s) wont work without electricity but you can get gravity heat during a power outage.

    As a repair service company I had several customers in your situation. So I mighr. recommend that toy find a installer that will offer your this service. monitor your heating system with a smart thermostat and have a service agreement with someone that has a key to your house. That way when you get an alarm from your smart thermostat that indicates a low temperature condition, you call the service company with your key to have the repairs made before the home freezes.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,593

    Pretty much what @EdTheHeaterMan said… with an addition. There are other things which can go amiss with an unattended house in the winter. Such as damage to a window. A prolonged power outage (your fancy thermostat won't tell you about that). And so on. I highly recommend hiring someone reliable and local — NOTE HIRING someone — who is tasked with — and paid for — going by the place at a mutually agreed interval (perhaps not daily, but at least weekly and after any major storm) and check on it. They would have a key — and not just drive by, but actually go in and poke around…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2PC7060EdTheHeaterManjim s_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,752

    You could also install a couple wall furnaces or console heaters or even a floor furnace with millivolt systems that is big enough to keep the place above freezing if the boiler fails.

    Kaoshilltown
  • arcticman
    arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33

    Thanks for the replies… good ideas.

    We also have a surveillance system with multiple cameras and multiple temperature sensors to monitor the house.

    As mentioned previously the only problem I've had with our boiler over the years is the need to manually reset occasionally.

    Do any of the newer models allow you to remotely monitor the boiler itself (i.e. temperature and pressure etc.) and reset remotely if required?

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,615

    A damn good Alarm System.
    Electric baseboard in critical areas.

    Grallert
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,752

    what needs to be reset? most of the controls that lock out try a couple times before locking out, if they get to the point that they lock out, something isn't right.

    pecmsgGrallert
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,028

    A solar generator or computer back up would keep a security or freeze protection powered. . Probably your internet also, so you could be notified.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,752

    there are a number of ways you could input the controls on the boiler locking out as an input to the security system. If it is a control that is hard locked out, someone needs to look at it before resetting it, if it was safe to automatically reset, it would already do that.

  • arcticman
    arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33
    IMG_3813.JPG

    Here's a picture of the Reset button. If it trips it can only be reset manually.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,752

    something is wrong if that is locking out. get a good oil burner tech to fix it.

  • arcticman
    arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33

    It is not currently locking out…. hasn't in years.

  • arcticman
    arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33

    I've thought about these options… but if the power goes out for just a second they can only be turned on manually.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 771

    I'm with @mattmia2 . Install through the wall vented heater as backup. If your power is somewhat reliable you can always add in electric heaters set bellow your boiler temp. Since it is backup, the operating cost doesn't matter. You can add a wifi thermostat to monitor the house remotely.

    All of this could be moot though as lot of insurance policies require somebody to check on the house every two weeks anyways.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,342
    edited November 4

    A wall furnace that operates on LP Gas that has a 750 MV Pilot generator needs no electrical connection. Cozy Wall Furnace This model is one of that type of furnace. Set the thermostat to 50° and set the oil fired boiler to to 55°. If the oil burner ever fails to light, the Cozy will take over. They have several models that can be installed in several different configurations.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mattmia2
  • arcticman
    arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33

    Pretty sure the vented heaters and electric heaters cannot operate automatically if the power goes out even for a second. When power is restored they need to be manually activated.

    Our power goes out often… while we're away if there's even a brief outage they would become useless as a backup.

    mattmia2
  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 771

    You can get ones that don't require any power, very common for off grid folks. There are also plenty of propane fireplaces that will run off a couple of AA batteries.

    mattmia2
  • HydronicMike
    HydronicMike Member Posts: 192

    If you’re remote, I would still drain the system, and all the domestic. You won’t need antifreeze anywhere but in the traps.

    Use electric heat, and a wifi thermostat to monitor temperature and notify you.

    Then if you lose power you won’t have any freeze damage.
    To me, remote means, possible extended power outages, impassable roads, etc. So I wouldn’t want to rely on anyone in the above mentioned cases.
    Also note you have an obsolete QB 180 burner. Make sure your service provider has all the parts necessary to fix that burner, or replace the burner before it becomes an emergency replacement.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,342

    @arcticman said "Pretty sure the vented heaters and electric heaters cannot operate automatically if the power goes out even for a second. When power is restored they need to be manually activated.

    Our power goes out often… while we're away if there's even a brief outage they would become useless as a backup."

    The Williamson COZY heaters that are not connected to the house's electrical system will not have any problem with the electrical system that it is NOT CONNECTED TO. Well that is my experience anyway.

    This model Floor Furnace will keep a good size home at 50° even at very low outdoor temperatures. It involves cutting a pretty big hole in the floor, but you can cover it with a carpet when you are home as long as you turn off the gas. When you want it as a backup, light the pilot, remove the carpet and set the thermostat to 50°

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mattmia2
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,028

    wall furnaces can lose their pilot light and then you are still without heat

    How much redundancy is enough?

    Neighbors, friends or property managers you can at least stay in contact with.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    mattmia2EdTheHeaterMan
  • arcticman
    arcticman Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 33

    Thanks for everyones replies.

    I have much to consider 😁

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,593

    Kinda what I said…

    in relation to @HydronicMike 's comment abut "remote". It kind of depends on who you hire to monitor your place. I HATE tooting my own horn, but when someone hires us to monitor their place (and we have a couple dailys, several weekly/sever storm ones) that's exactly what we do. It's what we are paid to do (among other things) and so that's what we do. Three heavy duty four wheel drive pickups (with winter tires, one with chains), two snowmobiles, two tractors, skis and showshoes. Oh — and a team of draught horses and a sleigh.

    And we're bonded and insured, so if something does go wrong and we should have caught it and didn't, you're covered and so are we.

    Now I might add that if you bring your fancy all wheel drive SUV around and get stuck because the road was "impassable" we'll also come and pull you out…. for a very nice price…

    humph

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    PC7060EdTheHeaterMan
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,279

    My vote is to make it easy to winterize. There's nothing that can run unattended with 100% certainty it will work.

    Instead of draining the heating system, fill it with glycol. Then it's just a matter of getting the water out of the pipes and getting antifreeze into all traps and appliances. If you blow the pipes out with compressed air it's easier. Do a blow-out, and as you go, if you ever need a tool, think about a way to change the plumbing so next time you won't need a tool.

    kcopp
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 1,004

    The most reliable course is a good caretaker.

    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver

  • klong
    klong Member Posts: 5

    Have an LG Ductless Minisplit in a Cabin in Montana that we only go to every few months. We are in the Midwest. Can see it remotely on the App that came with the unit. Can adjust it as well. Have baseboard electric as well. It is set lower than the Minisplit. Cabin is around 1600 square feet. We were able to use a Mini Split that had High Heat Capability at low ambient temperatures. Am good down to about -8 and then it starts to give up some temperature.

  • Steve_Wheels
    Steve_Wheels Member Posts: 36

    Adding glycol to your heating system is a great idea. There are many items to consider (pump sizing, transfer of heat, % glycol, etc) when doing this. Make sure to hire a local professional to do this.

    You may want to consider a propane boiler that comes equipped with WiFi (not Bluetooth) that will alert you if there is a problem with the boiler and/or send an email to your contractor for remote reset or immediate service. Of course this is all great, but if you have no electric none of this works anyways.

    I was just at a ranger station in Colorado. The complex is run by electric BUT has a full solar electric system with battery storage. Each cabin was equipped with a standing pilot, atmospheric stand alone heater that was central to the house. These little heaters (by little I mean 40,000 mbh, stood about 3 ft tall, 3 feet wide and about a foot deep) still needed electric to open and close the gas valve and run the thermostat, but very minimal electric. The heaters actually reminded me a lot of the heaters I was used to in sailboats.

  • SKYPAINTER
    SKYPAINTER Member Posts: 12

    I did not have the time to read all the comments but if this was my place I would get a propane tank installed along with a good gas-fired generator that automatically detects power outage and fires up. You would definitely have to automate the boiler controls and get rid of the manual re-lighting. It's expensive but it would solve all your issues regarding power outage.

  • Paul Formisano
    Paul Formisano Member Posts: 25
    edited November 6

    You can reset that button remotely with something called a fingerbot button pressing device. It’s basically a tiny Wi-Fi connected actuator that you mount next to the button. You can then press it remotely with your phone and an app.

    Millivolt natural gas and propane fired heaters will work without an external power source. If you get one, they use a standing pilot and what’s known as a thermopile to generate enough millivolts to control the gas solenoid. You can purchase what’s known as an automatic pilot relight module, and replace the spark igniter in the heater with its electrode. If the pilot ever blows out due to wind, it will spark continuously to try and relight the pilot. It’s usually successful enough to get it relit before the thermopile cools off and the pilot valve shuts down the gas flow. I believe they have 12 VDC versions you could connect to a small 12V lithium battery, so it would work in a power outage. Keep the battery on a trickle charger so it’s always ready if it’s needed.

    bburd
  • henrykissingher
    henrykissingher Member Posts: 3

    I am set up way better. I have a helicopter for severe road conditions and we rappel down to the house

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • henrykissingher
    henrykissingher Member Posts: 3

    plumbers always seem to offer the most expensive fixes possible. for around $200 each you can get a couple of propane wall mounted gas heaters and that will take care of the problem. they have a pilot lite which can only go out if you run out of gas. main water supply should be turned off before leaving. should not depend on the boiler just the wall units. I have one in an 1200sq ft apt when set on the lowest setting keeps it close to 60

  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,050

    We sold a couple hundred thousand Rinnai DV’s across ME, NH & VT with one of the primary reasons being that it would reliably re-start when power came back on. As I called on all the propane companies it was funny how the same question was asked by every service manager. “Will it re-start?” Yes, and the market took off. They are an everyday use product in the space as they have good manners, quiet, cool to the touch and about bullet proof. Today’s market, correctly, favors the mini-split in those areas but the Energysavers are still an excellent product. They are not inexpensive, but you get what you pay for and they last.

    An alternative spoken of would be vent free heaters that are independent of power source. Of those I would choose an Empire infra-red, not a blue flame.

  • JeffM
    JeffM Member Posts: 183

    I second the caretaker option, probably cheaper than hooking up a new heating system.

    I remotely manage our family's property in coastal Maine, which is sometimes unoccupied in winter. We used to drain and winterize it, but that was a real pain and had to be done very carefully and thoroughly (and prevented any use during the winter or it would all need to be re-winterized). So during a remodel with radiant heat that is really hard to drain (and no desire to use glycol), I had WiFi thermostats installed and a handful of web cameras (one in the mechanical room), and the propane tanks are remote monitor equipped (the supplier and I both can see their levels). Then we just pay a caretaker to drop in every couple of weeks to make sure nothing catastrophic has happened (broken window, fallen tree, etc), and she is also on-call if I see anything amiss via the remote systems. There is a generator as well, but that wouldn't be necessary - it's great peace of mind though that freeze ups due to power outages aren't a concern (it's also web enabled)! Keeping the place minimally heated all winter is worth the cost to be able to drop in anytime someone wants, and never having to spend time winterizing.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,593

    Newsflash from today! We dropped in at one of the daily properties we monitor this morning. No hot water pressure. That's odd. Quick trip to basement. Water heater had sprung a nice leak… No big deal. Turn off the water feed, turn off the power. Nothing got soaked except the floor.

    Let it go a week or two… would have been a lot worse.

    So. What do you have monitoring the basement? Which fancy widget picks that sort of thing up?

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 11,342

    Trunk monkey has revolutionized the auto industry.  

    I wonder when they will come out with the Boiler Baboon. That will solve all your boiler problems

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    HotanCoolPC7060kcopp
  • HotanCool
    HotanCool Member Posts: 58

    plenty of remote monitoring systems out there. My old oil company had one. Monitored room temp, burner control, oil tank level. Get rid of that old red button control for a new electronic type. They're more reliable. Your burner lockout issue may have been solved already. Have the boiler serviced. Of course you would still have water leaks to possibly worry about. No perfect solution. Or just one.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,279
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,593

    Not a bad idea… until your boiler needs water…

    Look. I get it. No one wants to pay someone to check on their property when there are all sorts of magic widgets to do it. "The neighbours will do it". Well, maybe, if they happen to notice. I won't get into the social assumptions here. but one might spend some time thinking about them…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,615

    my BIL Lake house in PA we pitched all the supply lines. Shut the pump off, open the drain, open all the faucets and problem solved.
    more then once the heat went down. That gave him time to get someone there and correct it.
    never ASSUME it’s foolproof!