New Refrigerants
So with the R-454B shortage
I am reading that the R-32 equipment was a new design for R-32 although it has been used in Europe for years. It seems that most MFGs (except Daiken & Goodman etc) opted for R-454B because no new redesign was needed. it sounds like R454-B is basically a R-410-A drop in replacement.
Is that true.
I talked to a former co-worker who told me some are installing R-454-B units and putting R-410-A in them if the factory charge is not enough due to the shortage and the high cost of R-454B
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So glad to be retired.
My son does side work, and also is not interested in air conditioning any more. Oil heat is all he needs to make a few extra bucks after work and weekends.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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R-764 forever.
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There's nothing wrong with R764……
I would think adding 410A to a system tagged for R454B would be a violation, no? Even if it does work, now the next guy doesn't know what's in it.
How does adding two blended refrigerants together work out in the end?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Oh, look it is even on sale
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There have been some design changes implemented. These are almost all related to safety concerns regarding the flammable nature of the new refrigerant. Both R-32 and R-454b run so close to R-410 in terms of performance you could probably get away with saying they are "drop in replacements" I of course am not allowed to say that. I do tell all the contractors when giving updates on the new stuff that if they are doing everything right with 410a, then they will be doing everything right with 454b, just add in hooking up the sensor and letting the "test" cycle run.
In regards to topping off with 410a, very foolish for a pro working on a customers equipment. I've joked about this for sure but only joked. If I were so inclined to top off with something else I would choose to top off with R-32 because at least you aren't adding a new component to refrigerant. If you are willing to break all best practice recommendations by topping off with a different blend I'd think you would have better luck blending your own 454b. This is all hypothetical of course and I can't endorse doing either of these things. If you are a pro you bite the bullet and buy the new refrigerant, or find leftover 410a equipment to sell, it's still out there in somewhat abundance if you know where to look
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I am not saying to "top off" or "mix" refrigerants, that's a no-no and the supply houses charge a bundle to get rid of mixed stuff.
For instance, if you had a 410A job and the AHU was ok, but the condensing unit went bad and you wanted to change the condensing unit you could buy a 454B condenser and use it with 454B refrigerant with the existing AHU or take the factory charge out of the new condenser and put 410A in its place due to the high cost and shortage of 410A.
It may be technically illegal but look at refrigeration systems. Many of those have been converted and if someone didn't mark the condensing unit you wouldn't know.
My question is illegal or not will it work?
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I think it is only illegal to do it without labeling it that you did it. It has to say what it contains, the rule doesn't dictate that you can't change the refrigerant that a system contains, only that it has to be labeled with what it contains.
Comparing pt charts will tell you if it will work.
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Actually, perusing the rules i'm not sure i even see that mixing refrigerants or not labeling the system is expressly prohibited. it certainly causes problems for people that service it later.
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that's a no-no and the supply houses charge a bundle to get rid of mixed stuff
What do the supply houses (or whoever accepts it) do with recovered refrigerant of any kind? Do they somehow make it nice and new again and re-sell it? Do they incinerate it? Can they even tell what you are handing them?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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this is all uncharted territory
Can you use R410A B-1a in a system designed for R-454A A2L
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I am far from an expert on refrigerant disposal.
It is supposed to be able to be cleaned and resold. One company I worked for had a 1000 gallon tank installed at the main branch for R-22 refrigerant recovery. This was years ago but they had about 20 techs on the road so they had a lot of emptys to recover. You can't get every bit out of a tank without a recovery machine (unless you vent illegally).
I worked out of a smaller branch so we just took it to a supply house.
They do test it because I turned in a tank once with mixed refrigerant one time and they found it……and I heard about it I was told they charge extra to incinerate it.
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you can measure the pressure and temp and compare to the chart. beyond that i don't think there is a simple way.
i think they prefer to incinerate it or maybe just put it in a warehouse somewhere until it leaks out instead of re-processing and reselling it so they can use the limited supply to price gouge on new refrigerant.
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There are a ton of places that buy used refrigerant and are EPA certified to clean and resell it.
If they didn't or weren't doing that when it was taken off the market the supply would dry up real fast
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have you ever seen it for sale? all the r22 i have seen is new, or they are lying.
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I can see that it is hot out from the more disagrees i've gotten in the last 3 days than the last year before that.
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As far as I know all R-22 being sold now is recycled. R-410a will be like that in a few years.
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2020 R-22 was phased out. No more new production or imports.
2026 R-410A as well as meany others will follow.
Reclaimed / recycled will still be available.
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I would expect from a functional perspective for the system to work. Higher end systems would be more temperamental I would think, lower end systems would more than likely work exactly as expected. where you run into an issue doing this for a customer would be all the safety systems that are in place with new equipment. If you had a split system with a coil and furnace (separate) you could theoretically swap the TXV for a 454b TXV, and add a sensor. with an air handler you always run the risk that the unit has a source of spark near a potential leak point. So lets say you do this theoretical swap for a customer and the open contactor clicks and lights the A2L on fire, the insurance company is going to come after you without a doubt. This is a bit of a stretch, but is one of many points that all manufacturers were forced to address with their new equipment to satisfy safety requirements with the new stuff. Going outside of those safety requirements signs you up for 100% liability. I wouldn't do this on a professional level for anyone, nobody can stop you from messing with your own stuff just keep in mind there may be warranty issues, and insurance issues, should an "event" occur.
@mattmia2 Labelling A2L systems is required, at least from the equipment manufacturers position. There are coils that were briefly on the market that are R410a out of the box, and convertible to R454b, the A2L safety labels are part of the conversion kit
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I don't think you would have to change the txv. If you look at the delta p around freezing it is very nearly the same for 410a and 454b so the superheat is going to only be a degree or so different with the txv charged with 410a or R454B.
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Enough with the "New" refrigerants! There are over three hundred past and present refrigerants. ( Sixteen are currently in use now ?) Why? Pollution? Ozone? Ok. But I thought that was covered the last time the big switch was made? What's the reason now? Is it change for the sake of … change?
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40 years ago when the rules to deal with the ozone depletion that was discovered 50 years ago, climate change was not widely known about, it was mostly just in some scientific papers and was not considered in those treaties. new treaties to address climate change have been negotiated since then. of course this is ignoring that the far greater and easiest to prevent source of greenhouse gases is methane vented and flared at gas and oil wells and leaks in the distribution network.
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The Patents ran Out!!!
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Follow the $$$$$
I understand why the recovery of refrigerant. With all the brains they have working on this just find a few that work and stick with that and stop changing. No doubt dumping the stuff in the atmosphere in the old days wasn't the way to go, but neither is constant changing.
Is it the equipment mfgs wanting to change refrigerants so they can sell new equipment? They needent worry the junk they are making doesn't last long anyhow.
Is it the refrigerant MFGs? What incentive do they have except the price of refrigerants is sky high.
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It only changed twice but the phaseout of freon 22 was like 30 years so it seems like it was one right after the other.
The money is from the people who are the actual problem that don't want to change who lobbied successfully to remove most regulation from them so the regulation of refrigerants remains. The money you need to follow isn't in refrigeration.
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