Radiators make my apartment unbearable during winter

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

You mentioned two thermostats. Anyway to know which thermostat controls what? You mentioned one tenant on the third floor that's having similar issues. Would probably be somewhat helpful to know if other apartments are having similar issues.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

In reality, there are two components that we need, to get to and fix the underlying issues.

One is a plethora of information. Which might be hard to come by. Many of us here know how various heating systems work, or should work. But none of us know the facts on the ground in your particular situation. And there are lots of facts that need to be known.

Second is a landlord who is willing to take appropriate steps. That might be even more difficult than finding out the relevant information.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

So let's proceed, with cautious optimism but realistic expectations. We are certainly happy to help you as much as we can!!

109A_5 · July 7

The system may be working as designed, it may just be a poor design. If there is no thermostat on your floor how would the system know when to stop heating the third floor ?

It would not surprise me if the seal in the valves were intentionally removed at some point.

Seems you may be stuck between a landlord that just does not care and the law that may just deal with minimum temperatures.

I think that's why the other folks offered other ban-aid type remedies. You are not the first to have this situation.

mattmia2 · July 7

The valve is probably not holding or maybe depending on the situation it has a small bypass to keep a radiator from freezing when it is closed that in your case happens to be enough flow to overheat the room. Depending on valve design something could be broken such that it isn't closing at all vs a bad washer that just doesn't seal completely. It could take relatively little flow to keep the radiator hot so possibly just a cracked washer could make it leak enough to keep the radiator hot.

The radiator is just a chunk of metal filled with hot water, it is the controls and possibly piping that have the problem. US Boiler makes boilers but the radiators and boiler didn't necessarily come from the same manufacturer and the boiler has likely been changed since that radiator was installed, possibly several times.

Flow check valves are one way of controlling flow in a zoned system in the zones that are off. Your system doesn't necessarily have them depending on how it is designed. Typically they are near the boiler but they don't have to be.

If the thermostat is nowhere near your radiators, covering them won't prevent the system from shutting off. It is the radiators near the thermostat that heat the area near the thermostat and cause the system to shut off. If there are no radiators heating the area that the thermostat is in than that would be a design problem.

A system that is correctly designed and maintained can keep all of the apartments comfortable within reason. A good professional that understands hot water heat would have no problem sorting it out.

wisco · July 7

So everyone is aware, I am just now seeing some comments that were not visible before. I think the reverse is also happening. There seems to be issues with a time difference I’m assuming as the last comments that I think were made by mattmia2 at around midnight are listed as 4 am..

Anyways, I’m not trying to have unrealistic expectations, but the problem solver and justice advocate in me is not ok with simply rolling over. At the very least, I’d like to get a better understanding of this heating system for curiosity’s sake and, yes, many people in the area have this problem too. If they don’t have interest in learning about it, that’s fine. But, I do. And, I suspect so many people have this problem because not many challenge it. Not because it’s unsolvable.

I can only refer back to and respond to the comments on this second page for now.

I don’t know that each thermostat controls something different. If that’s what you are asking. I wish there was a plugin in the hallway to put a space heater by the themostat(s).

As far as I know, nothing controls the 3rd floor temperature. Is that unusual? Do you think there could have been a thermostat on the third floor that was removed?

During winter, the most frozen over windows are mine. It looks like all the apartments on the top floor have partial frost present, but mine are usually the worst and totally frosted. No windows on the second or first floors have frost.

I’d like to answer as many questions as I can. I could potentially get a look at/take a picture of the boiler but I think that would be frowned upon and I will not attempt anything myself, just to be clear.
I’m sure boiler problems are a headache for the landlord. Maybe doing the legwork to figure out the best steps to take and the ones that are least costly and troublesome is part of the problem. All these properties aren’t managed by a company. As far as I can tell, he coordinates the maintenance alone. I don’t want to presume what he is thinking. I’m just going to inform myself as best I can and go from there. I can do the legwork and that will inform the next steps.

Why would the seal in the valves be intentionally removed?

If the radiator valves simply have cracked washers, what is the process of fixing that? Is the cost and work less than replacing the valves? If the washers are found not to be the problem, can the valves be replaced in the same visit?
Shutting off the flow to the radiators just seems like the simplest and probably cheapest fix. Why wouldn’t doing that solve the problem?

wisco · July 7

Addressing some comments missed on the first page:

There are no radiators in the hallways.

Is it easy to install thermostats in the apartments that actually influence the boiler? A number of landlords in the area ‘install’ placebo thermostats.. but actually control the temperature themselves.
Would that be more cost efficient (individual functional apartment thermostats) than replacing the radiator valves?
And, yes, I’m sure there are multiple issues. It still seems like just cutting off the hot water to the radiators at the valves would be the easiest fix. Do you have counter points to this option?

wisco · July 7

Oh, and there is a local company that services steam and water boilers. There have been people here to look at the thermostats this last spring and I would assume it was this same company. They seem to be the only ones with experience to do it. I guess I would wonder if they have sorted it out and repair wasn’t authorized or if they aren’t aware of the specifics of the overheating in the winter.

109A_5 · July 7

Seems like there is a software bug, seems mostly like when not logged on the first page on some threads is not accessible. Also when not logged on the post time stamp is GMT an not EST, EDT or your local time zone, that is the way it is. Being logged on works the best and makes the most sense with the time stamps.

Radiator valves ; Multiple types of people, some play with the valves to the point they leak and the landlord has to spend money to repair them, others just leave stuff alone. If the valve is basically disabled (won't close) the landlord will not get 'no heat' complaints from closed valves, and the folks that like to fiddle with them will stop fiddling with when they figure out nothing changes. Or the valve is just tired and needs repair or replacement.

Sadly without access to the boiler room to learn what is there you are very limited to what you can learn about the system.

The funny thing is, if the landlord paid for the 'what ever it takes' to make the system better that money (and probably more) would be saved in fuel costs. My guess is he just does not want to deal with it.

The system may not be zoned. So when the boiler is on the whole building gets heat whether parts need it or not. Also the heated air from the first and second floor is probably helping to heat the third floor.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

Having the thermostat, in an unheated hallway, is quiet silly. Let's just envision the following scenario. The building is 60 degrees. Someone turns on the thermostat and sets it to 70 degrees. Let's say in 20 minutes, the radiators start heating up a bit. In 30-40 minutes, the apartment room temperature has climbed a degree or two. In one hour, the apartment room temp has climbed a few more degrees. Meanwhile, the hallway, is as cold as ever. Because it is unheated. Maybe the hallway will get a bit of heat, from the surrounding apartments. Maybe for every 5-7 degrees of temperature rise in the apartments, the hallway will increase 1-2 degrees. As you can readily see, this setup is a guarantee to have overheated apartments. And it is obviously extraordinarily inefficient. Boiler will need to run how much longer than it should have to.

There is a relatively easy solution to this problem. Put in a thermostat with locking features. That only the landlord can control. Install remote sensors in one or more apartments. Landlord will have control but the actual temperature that controls the thermostat will be in the apartments.

Jamie Hall · July 7

Having found out the type of heating system — hot water — I made a recommendation to you for something to try: turn off the valves on the radiators in question. That will stop heat to those radiators — if the valves work.

If they don't they need to be repaired. That's not hard, but it's also not something which can be done for only one apartment, as the entire heating system is involved, and thus would be something which you would have to involved the landlord or building manager with.

As to the radiators. No, there are no known "design flaws" with that brand — or for that matter most other brands — of radiator. A radiator is a tank with fins. Water goes in one end, the radiator heats up, cool water goes out the other. End of story.

While there may be design, or other problems with the boiler and pumps, and the location of the control thermostats may not be optimal, that will not have much affect on the overheating of your apartment.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 7

@wisco… A lot of time, the questions that is asked by some of the first timers will not actually be the question you want answered. We have found this to be true in many cases when a person asks How does this widget work? After several days of Q and A we find that, they have an completely different set up and discover ther the original widget is not what is causing the problem the original poster wants answers to. The bottom line is they want comfort. The fact that they thought the widget was the reason for their uncomfortable condition lead many in a quest to solve a problem that was non-existent. When we finally get to to bottom and find the real problem and then solve that for the original newbie poster.

Forgive me for making that assumption about your query, My "blanket fix" appears top be your best option, it is not the answer to your query as to "how the system works".

Not all systems are designed the same, but there are some basic similarities to every boiler system that uses water to heat radiators. I used to teach a one day seminar on this subject. So let me make an attempt to expand on @109A _5's simplified explanation. Not knowing how the system is piped or designed I will use the most common piping system that was used in pre WWII built housing. It is called the direct return gravity system. It was originally designed to be heated by a hand fired (usually Coal) boiler that had no thermostat in the building because there were no motors to turn on and turn off. The thermostat was the fireman in the boiler room who shoveled in the amount of coal needed to heat the building based on how cold the outside weather was on any given day.

Here is that system simplified

Screenshot 2025-07-07 at 10.11.50 AM-1.jpg

That slide was from the class I taught. Now that might be in a single family home. In your apartment building it might look more like this

Screenshot 2025-07-07 at 10.11.50 AM-2.jpg

As you can see with this system all the radiators are connected to the same pipes and the same boiler. When there is only one valve on one side of each radiator, it is used for adjusting the amount of heat in each radiator called “Balancing”. You, or anybody else, can not remove one radiator to make repairs or adjustments by just closing one valve to open the system up without draining the water in the boiler below the point in the system where you need to make the repair. That will also leave all the other radiators without any water in them, so all the other radiators will also have no heat while the one radiator is being repaired. The reason you can't just close one valve and open the system is because the other side of the radiator is still connected to the water pressure from the closed system. All the water pressure from the entire system will just flow in from the return side of the disconnected radiator.

There is the reason why I, and others, went in those different directions like screens, lawyers, and blankets. Because the mechanics of how the system works will not benefit you in solving your issue, without “reluctant Landlord” getting involved.

Screenshot 2025-07-07 at 10.11.18 AM.png

Now back to the simple design system. When the Gravity Circulated system (also called Thermosyphoning) was converted to an oil burner or a gas burner system, a thermostat needed to be installed in one of the rooms somewhere, to start and stop the burner and to stop and start the circulator pump that was added to that old gravity system. In this slide, the thermostat was in the closest room, so the farthest radiator did not get any heat because the thermostat was satisfied before the farthest radiator even started to heat up.

Screenshot 2025-07-07 at 10.12.37 AM.png

Now to fix that, the building owner moves the thermostat to the farthest room so that the heater will continue to run until the coldest room gets enough heat But that causes the early heating rooms to over-heat as shown here on the next slide.

By adding the circulator pump and not properly balancing the system, this can happen very easily.

There is an explanation of how that can cause problems in a video about Hydronic Systems HERE.

You posted a question about how covering your radiator will affect the thermostat operation. That is not going to be an issue unless your radiator is in the room with the thermostat. It appears that your radiators are not in the same room as the thermostat, so covering your radiator will just let less heat out of that radiator and send that unused heat back to the system where some other radiator can use it. That Blanket Trick will actually save the landlord on fuel costs because you are sending the heat you don't want back to the system for others to use.

It all boils down to Math. (pun about boiling intended) If you are in a room that needs 3000 BTUs every hour when it is 8°F outside, and the radiator is putting 6000 BTUh in the room, then the room will get hotter than the desired room temperature. Now put insulation between the radiator and the room, and the radiator will only put 4000 BTUh into the room. That is still more than you need. So add more Insulation… (A second layer of blanket). Now you are only getting 2000 BTUh from the radiator… Not enough to stay comfortable. So let the radiator show a little leg… sound "Spicy” but that depends on how those legs look L🤣L.

When you are a landlord, you must provide a minimum temperature of 68° in the coldest apartment. If your system is not balanced then someone will be overheated whenever the coldest room is 68°. Unless you, as a landlord, are interested in spending the money needed to solve the problem, then you will just have to hear the complaints from those that are overheated, because dropping below the minimum temperature in the cold rooms comes with a hefty fine. You are not going to be fined for too much heat.

This was just about 10 minutes of an 8 hour seminar. I hope this explanation helps you to understand the way heating systems with radiators work. There is a lot more to learn, And I'm glad to offer you answers to any technical questions you might have. Now that I know that you want to know how it works, not to do the repairs yourself, or to try to teach an experienced plumber / boiler tech how to do their job. You just want to know… I’m picking up what you're puttin’ down…

Again, I hope this helps, Ed

ethicalpaul · July 7

Ed's blanket solution is the fastest, cheapest fix to this problem if closing the valve doesn't do anything. My opinion only!

pecmsg · July 7

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1859643#Comment_1859643

X-2

JUGHNE · July 7

So to repair or change radiator supply valves; first with the system cold, drain down the entire building to at least below the defective valve (s).

Then open the bonnet on the valve and remove the rotating shaft, the rubber washer may be gone or disintegrated beyond use. The screw holding the washer in place may not come out or twist off. Just finding the replacement parts to fit might be nearly impossible as these are probably from the 1940's.

So to replace the entire valve; the valve may screw off with some effort or cutting. Then the brass spud that screws into the radiator has to be changed as new valves have a matching spud that just about will never match the old one.

So to remove the old spud, if lucky it could be unscrewed, but most likely has to be cut and chiseled out in pieces taking care to not cut into the radiator inlet threads.

This might be done with the worker lying on the floor, it is easier to disconnect the outlet connection and lay the radiator on the floor on it's side (these rads weight several hundred pounds). Then with the new spud installed and the new valve on the riser pipe the riser pipe is a little short as the new valves are more compact than the old might have been. (The pattern is very difficult or expensive to match old with new). With more luck the riser pipe might be pulled up to match the old height. Sometimes the pipe will not rise. The shortest extension is usually too much.

We have seen pocket holes drilled in the floor to lower the radiator the required amount. But then you have to deal with the outlet connection….will it push down?

And then you want new valves without that by-pass port that keeps the rad from freezing.

This could be a 1 hour job or a 3 hour job.

Then refill the entire system with water, then perhaps have to go and bleed every radiator if air got into the lower piping.

For the work on the valves, obviously the workmen have to have access to any apartment during the day.

Sorry, if my Section 8 comment offended you. But I know of a larger metro city where the owners are trying to get their buildings out of that program. They can not freeze tenants out but they could cook them out in the winter time.

mattmia2 · July 8

or if the screw isn't coming out easily heat it with a torch. if it still breaks drill it oversize and tap for the next size. either way use a new staginess screw and anti seize so it doesn't happen again.

wisco · July 8

I didn’t have a chance to look at responses yesterday, I’ll try to address each one as I see it.

@109A_5 it’s a little unclear with how it’s worded but, you’re saying that valves that appear to be closed, but aren’t actually closed, will not have ‘no heat’ complaints?
I think, yes, my valves are turned externally to be closed but appear to not be actually closed off because, yes, I am not complaining about no heat.
I’m not expecting the landlord to make the system better at every chance. My specific expectation is that I can live in reasonable temperatures.
I’m not necessarily concerned with the whole system if I can address the overheating in my apartment.
The building is not zoned or not correctly then. Yes, this being the top floor, it is the hottest.

@STEAM DOCTOR Yes, the current setup seems like it was not well thought out.
What goes into installing these thermostats like you suggest? Are they physically connected to the boiler to initiate heating when called for or are they able to send a signal to prompt heating? What sort of work is required to do this and how long does it typically take?
Bottom line, what is the easiest and most affordable?
Is this the only option or are there other options that are easier and more affordable by just closing the open flow to radiators for my whole apartment?

@Jamie Hall Yes, I had tried your recommendation and responded to it with what I observed. Which is why I directed you back to my response to your recommendation.
Yes, to repair the valves, it is my understanding that the system will have to off and possibly drained. I want to get a good understanding of what is necessary to address this before requesting it.

So, you are saying that placement of thermostats would not have much influence on the overheating of my apartment?
I think that directly contradicts @STEAM DOCTOR…
How do you respond to the scenario the he listed? That’s most likely what is happening here.
I think addressing thermostat placement or addressing specific flow to my apartment would fix the problem. The question is, which is easier and more affordable.

Response to @EdTheHeaterMan and those after coming shortly.

wisco · July 8

@EdTheHeaterMan I understand that others may ask things that are not really the question they want to know. At least for me, please assume the question I ask is the one I want answered.
If the problem that I think is responsible is actually non-existent, that’s ok too. But, it needs to still be verified that the problem is non-existent then. It can’t be assumed the problem is non-existent.
The inefficiency is coming into play where I have to defend asking a question and having to justify my motives. It would help greatly if my questions are just answered from a mechanical standpoint so that I may proceed with follow up questions. I’m fine with providing information to better describe the heating system and what options I would like to discuss as I am able. But, please do not take my voluntarily given information as a way to side-step my questions or question my other choices.
My radiator appears to have pipes present on both sides. So, you are saying if I close the valves on my radiators, which I did during the winter, that the pressure of the system would have be disrupted. Because I observed my radiators still remaining extremely hot afterwards, I would assume the valves are shot and that the system was not disrupted. How would I verify if the system was disrupted or not? If the valves are functional, what indications would I see (if any) that the system was interrupted? I would think that functional valves being closed would have resulted in major heating problems with all apartments.
Is there a way to close both connections to the radiators easily? Is closing off flow to the radiators of my entire apartment an easier solution? @Jamie Hall suggested replacing the valves but that does not seem to track with what you are saying about radiators with two connecting pipes.
I didn’t say that I wouldn’t try to get my landlord involved. I am planning on bringing this up and I want a good understanding before doing so. Maybe I won’t have to bring it up from what I learn here. But, I need to be presented with the information before being able to come to that conclusion myself.
Yes, the system is not balanced. Is balancing the system with properly placed thermostats as @STEAM DOCTOR suggested the best way to address this in terms of ease and affordability? Or, is investigating the flow to the radiators in my apartment as @Jamie Hall suggested an option and is that the better option?

The effectiveness of a covering in regards to responding thermostats was already addressed in a previous comment. A lot of heat is already released into the surrounding metal of the radiator and air between radiator and covering. The covering would also have to be very tailored in fit to be the most effective which is already questionable to me. Overall, this may be a way to address it, but I view this ‘bandaid’ as somewhat sloppy and I don’t believe it would mitigate the problem enough. I would not like to discuss this suggestion anymore at this time and would like to discuss corrections that more directly address the problem. Exploring those more direct options is a prerequisite of conversations that simply address symptoms more and not the problem.
I don’t think I would need heat from the radiators at all in the winter for my apartment to be comfortable.
The requirement is apparently 67 F here. I don’t believe it is true that the landlord needs to decide on their own to maintain a living standard. I also don’t think the overheating issue is infallible in court. That is why I am here asking questions about how these systems work. Trying to assume what my landlord is thinking or will do only magnifies the questions that need to be answered, unnecessarily. And, there are legal resources and professionals for all those more nuanced questions.
Please just help me understand how this heating system functions. That is why I am specifically here asking questions about it on this forum.

@JUGHNE From what you’ve said, replacing valves has challenges at nearly every step.
Is there potentially a way to stop flow to the entire apartment by altering a single pipe rather than 5 radiators?
If that is an option, is it more doable than addressing the thermostat placement as suggested above?
It’s hard to see a question about section 8 housing as innocent when there is an insult a few sentences before. I’m sorry for not recognizing the legitimate inquiry.
There may be a few angles I can use outside of section 8 and I will be discussing those with advocates tomorrow.

mattmia2 · July 8

Despite the name, most of the heat emitted from a radiator comes from air moving over the radiator by convection rather than radiation. If you block the air flow you block most of the output. Convector cabinets can stop most of their output by closing off one of the vents in the cabinet with a damper. Radiator covers work in a similar manner.

Repairing or replacing valves isn't difficult for someone with mechanical skills but the wrong person is going to have a bad time and even with the right tools and skills it is time consuming.

The talk about the return being open to the system was just about repairing the valves and why the system has to be drained below the emitter before working on the valve. Even if the supply valve is closed, if you open the radiator or valve so that water can get out, more water will flow in from the return even with the valve closed. If the radiator is connected to the system on both the supply and return as it would be in normal operation, if the valve is closed completely there will be no flow through the radiator(but some valves have a small bypass even when they are closed to keep the radiator and piping from freezing even if it is turned off).

Pumpguy · July 8

IMO, the problem here is you don't have a thermostat in YOUR apartment. The thermostat controls the level of temperature it senses. If the thermostat is cold, it's telling the system to add more heat.

If the thermostat senses too much heat, it tells the system to stop sending heat.

Thermostatic radiator valves would do what you want, but the landlord won't provide them, and you can't.

So, YOU need to be the thermostat. If the radiator valves won't close, you can cover the radiators so they emit less heat, and/or open windows to get rid of the excess heat.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 8

My radiator appears to have pipes present on both sides. So, you are saying if I close the valves on my radiators, which I did during the winter, that the pressure of the system would have be disrupted.

Not at all. If the valve does in fact close and is not defective, then the flow thru the radiator of 180° water would stop completely (or almost completely). For example: with the valve completely open the water may be able to flow thru a given radiator at a rate of 0.5 GPM (again the math will tell the story). without going thru all the math which you can find here on page 4 if you like, lets just say the 0.5 GPM of 180° water thru that radiator will carry heat at a rate of 5,000 BTUh. By closing the valve completely, then the flow will stop completely, so the radiator will emit no heat into the room. Any partially closed valve will allow say 0.25 GPM of 180 water thru the radiator, then that radiator will only put 2500 BTUh into that room, while closing the valve down to 10% flow or 0.05 GPM will reduce the heat output of that radiator to about 500 BTUh

The pressure drop across one radiator or thru the valve has little to do with the heat output of the radiator. the rate at which the water flows and the temperature drop of that water flow is what determines the amount of heat that any particular radiator gives off.

Because I observed my radiators still remaining extremely hot afterwards, I would assume the valves are shot and that the system was not disrupted.

Based on the fact that the closed position of the valve does not stop the flow of heat from the boiler to the radiator, I must agree with your conclusion that the valve is defective.

How would I verify if the system was disrupted or not? If the valves are functional, what indications would I see (if any) that the system was interrupted? I would think that functional valves being closed would have resulted in major heating problems with all apartments.

Your language is slightly different from what I understand. I might use different words to convey my thoughts to another person in the trade. That said, I wish to understand what you mean by disrupted? I can only equate that to mean the valve is closed or partially closed as you would close a faucet at a sink so there is no water flow from the faucet to the drain in the sink in an open system. (open system is defined as a water system where the water is exposed to the atmosphere at some point in the cycle)

In understanding how a valve might work in a closed system, like your heating boiler system (a closed system is where the system may be under a vacuum or a pressure that is not exposed to the atmosphere like the freon in an air conditioner). you need to realize the water is moving around the system like a ferris wheel moves around. All the water in the completely filled system moves at the same time. Another analogy would be a toy train set where the train goes around in a circular track with enough cars that the front of the locomotive is connected to the last car in the train. When the locomotive moves, all the other cars move at the same time, just like ALL the water moves at the same time. Your system just has many, many different radiators (train stations) so there are many, many different circles that all go thru the boiler to pick up heat.

The heating boiler closed system connected to your radiator is operating at a pressure that is probably lower than 30 PSI. It may even be below 5 PSI on the upper floors where you live. That pressure has nothing to do with the amount of heat that water can transfer. All the pressure is doing, is making sure that the radiators stay full of water throughout the entire system. By closing a valve at one of the radiators, all that closed valve is doing is stopping the flow of water to that radiator. Water is the train that the heat from the boiler rides on the get to all the various stops (radiators) along the route. If you close the valve then no more trains (hot water) can pass thru your station (radiator).

Is there a way to close both connections to the radiators easily? Is closing off flow to the radiators of my entire apartment an easier solution?

simple answer: NO.

Lets refer to my earlier illustration of the apartment building in my previous post above. Here I have isolated all the other apartments and only show the boiler in the basement and the radiators in your apartment.

If the valve is working as it should then YES, you just need to close off one side of the radiator to stop the water flow. If you look at your radiator you have only one valve. Someone would need to add working valves to both sides of the radiator (and I don’t see that happening) in order to close off both sides, or to disconnect the radiator completely for removing, as if to do any kind of maintenance on that radiator or to paint the wall behind the radiator or replace the floorboards below the radiator. Closing only the one valve, even if it was working, will not allow removal of the radiator from the location in order to perform any remote service, like sending it out to be cleaned and painted or repairing the wall of floor behind the radiator. To do this you need to drain the system below the level of the radiator. (I realize you don't want to remove the radiator, but I mention this because you asked about closing off both sides) This illustration shows the right side of the above drawing where I have included the boiler, some connecting pipes and one of the many radiators in the building.

As you can see, as the system is filled with hundreds of gallons of water to fill all the radiators in the building between the boiler and the radiators in your apartment, the water level will rise as more water pressure is added at the bottom of the system in the boiler room. Eventually all the radiators are filled by someone letting the air out of each radiator at the vent on the top of one side of every radiator, indicated by the water droplets coming out of the radiator on the right side. Once all the air is let out of the vent, It is manually closed and the radiators will all get heat from the boiler whenever there is heat in the boiler and circulation thru the individual loop or circuit of the radiator as illustrated.

The industry standard for your radiator is to have one valve on the supply side (the pipe where the heat comes into the radiator) on the radiator and a return bend union on the return side of the radiator. What you want your radiator to be equipped with to do the "turn off both sides" is not normal, and there is no way to get it done easily in your situation. You would need to be the building owner to accomplish what you want to do. I don't see that happening until after you hit the lottery.

I hope this helps in understanding your heating system. If you have any more detailed questions please private message me, I will be happy to have a conversation with you, I have even given my cellphone number to many who ask for help in real time. I just don't want to publish it on the public forum. I'm retires and limit who can reach me.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 8

Have you ever heard this expression? "There is more than one way to skin a cat?" It refers to having the ability to understand the problem at hand and looking for alternate solutions to the problem. Another way to look at things for example, like the quote from Mother Superior in the movie version of The Sound of Music when she says "When God Closes a door, he often opens a window".

See how I added that "opening the window" quote for your too much heat problem. L🤣L

We can look at how heat is transferred from the gas or fuel oil flame in the basement to the room in your apartment. Heat can travel 3 different ways. Conduction, Convection, and Radiation.

Conduction is when one mass is hotter and that heat moves through the mass to a colder mass that it is connected to. Think of an iron frying pan. You heat the iron where you want to cook stuff but eventually the handle gets too hot to touch. (that is why they invented pot holders). You don’t want to heat the handle but conduction causes the handle to get hot anyway.

Convection is another way that heat is moved from one place to another. This is where you heat a fluid like air or water in one location and move that heated fluid to another location. This form of moving heat is how the boiler gets the heat from the basement to the radiators. What happens is that the flame inside the boiler heats the water in the boiler, then pumps or gravity causes the hot water to move (with all the stored heat) to another location (the radiator) where you can use the heat.

Another form of convection happens inside the room where the radiator is located. The air close to the radiator is absorbing the heat from the radiator and becomes less dense (hot air is lighter than cold air) so that heated air rises above the radiator towards the ceiling of the room. As this happens the air that is already near the ceiling is pushed out of the way. At The same time, the air that is leaving the radiator is replaced by the colder air that is on the floor just in front of the radiator. When that happens that colder air is then heated by the radiator, and we already know what happens to the heated air near the radiator. Since this moving of cold air across the floor and warm air across the ceiling continues to “circulate” around the room, the entire room ends up being a little warmer as a result of convection air currents that move so slowly that you don't even notice.

Finally, Radiation is the way the sun heats the earth. It is said the heat rises but that is not the correct way to make that statement. Hot air rises is the correct way to say it. And the reasonI know this is because the sun is hot and it is above us, but somehow the heat from the sun gets DOWN to us on earth. Radiation travels in all directions using infrared light to heat objects and people without actually heating the atmosphere (the air) in between the source and the object. This accounts for about 20% of the heat you are getting from your radiator.

Now if we look at the problem from another angle, one that you can actually control, then we may be able to get you comfortable this upcoming winter. Let me know it that is of interest to you.

This is the 6 minute introduction to my one day seminar the professional plumbers, and HVAC technicians pay hundreds of dollars to learn. It goes rather fast in most cases because we all should already know this, it is just good to refresh this point so we are all on the same page when if comes time to refer to radiant heat later on in the seminar.

So you are getting little bits and pieces of what the Pros paid for back in the day.

I hope this helps.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 10

It sounds like a call to the local inspector is warranted from what you are saying.

If you can make the point that the system is not in good working order by illustrating that the valve is defective. This might need to be completed on a cold winter day. Have the inspector make a note of the +85° temperature in your apartment and also close the valve on each radiator. Summer time will not help your case, and getting a decision in the winter time will not solve your problem today.

The system is not functioning as desired, but it can’t be attributed to not functioning vs a design error, correct?

I would say that a valve that does not work is not a design error. I believe that would be a defective valve that is repairable. But the repairs need to be completed when the water is drained from the system. Not going to help you now in the summer. Here is the replacement part needed to make the repair. 1" radiator valve.

Is that true for the radiator valves? Shouldn’t turning the valves to off on the radiators at least reduce heat coming from them? Would no change in heat after turning the valves to off be an indication that they are not functioning correctly?

I believe that those questions indicate your point perfectly. Getting an inspector to believe you without visible proof will be difficult. The problem in the summer is getting an inspector to believe you without actually seeing that the valve in the off position does not stop the heat from moving thru the radiator.

Is balancing the system with properly placed thermostats as @STEAM DOCTOR suggested the best way to address this in terms of ease and affordability?

I can't say. The fact that there is more than one thermostat does add to what the possible problems might be. My design is based on only one thermostat.

Without knowing what you actually have in your building, and only seeing the connecting pipes on the one radiator that has the Standard Radiator Valve on one side and Return Bend on the other side, I can only make a guess as to what your system's hidden pipes might look like. I am only using 45 years of experience in the Greater Philadelphia area as a basis for what a "Standard Heating Design" might be for a building the age that your building is. The fact that there is more than one way to pipe a hot water system and the fact that you are located in WI may render my assumptions incorrect. The facts that you have stated about your radiators overheating lends itself to my educated guess of the parallel or ladder design I have suggested, but this is no guarantee.

Having more that one thermostat does not negate the fact that a radiator valve IS defective. Any valve that you turn to the OFF position should completely stop the flow of heat to that radiator.

hot_rod · July 10

ghost flow is a condition where a small amount of flow goes up a return line when a radiator has only one shutoff valve. So two direction flow in a pipe to a heat emitter. That valve can be completely sealed off and still allow ghost flow.

Basically hot water rises in the pipe, cooler water drops down the same pipe, so some heat is always coming out of the radiator.

Generally a slow but consistent over heat condition not unlike what you describe.Plenty of post here over the years on ghost, or two way flow issues.

mattmia2 · July 10

the test for this would be the return pipe would be hotter than the supply pipe with the valve closed.

hot_rod · July 10

I suspect this is not a new problem in that building. Also the owner is unable or unwilling to perform the correct fix.

If it is out of the OP hands, then we are back to the blanket test and possible long term fix.

What do you have to lose?

EdTheHeaterMan · July 10

Ghost Flow

I never thought of that possibility here, but that could be the answer. That would be a flawed design that can only be fixed by adding flow control valves on the return side of the system mains. That is assuming there are working flow control valves on the supply side.

This is explained in that same textbook here I referred to in my earlier post. It is on page 11 second column. One Zone One Circulator. The phenomenon is not called Ghost Flo in that text but it is well explained and well illustrated on page 11 and 12.

Again PM me for real time exchange of information, I can help and have helped many in the past.

hot_rod · July 10

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1859864#Comment_1859864

could be mis piped from day one, piping changed over the years, over-sized circ

Eyes on the ground, in the boiler room, would sure help

SuperTech · July 10

I don't know why it's an unreasonable suggestion to try the most simple, inexpensive and well known solution to this problem. Cover the radiator with a thick blanket. This should be tried before a tenant attempts any sort of invasive repairs on equipment that doesn't belong to him.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 10

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1859873#Comment_1859873

When someone is focused on solving a problem in the design or to make things right by the conventional means, and does not want to do what they can on their own because it doesn't look nice or is outside of what the trade might recommend as a "proper" fix, then you can not fault them in their efforts. I applaud @wisco 's efforts to understand how the building works. I believe his efforts will pay off for the landlord if @wisco can get the landlord's ear with the proper information and fruits of their research. One can only hope for a proper outcome.

If all else fails, I'm sure that the blanket idea will not be lost in spite of themself. I don't believe that @wisco is interested in hearing more antidotal opinions on stopping the flow of heat from the radiator to the room. They have made that clear. How would YOU as an expert in the business solve this? If anyone has actual mechanical, technical, or operational advice (like the Ghost Flow Idea that I can't believe I didn't think of) to assist in the efforts to make the system balanced as it should have been designed in the first place, then please let us know about your ideas.

I am not sorry that I did the blanket suggestion in the beginning, but now that I understand what @wisco is asking, and what they are trying to do, I want to help them understand the "boiler system workings" in whatever way I can.

Although with limited info, I can only make educated guesses. I hope that those guesses are correct and that @wisco becomes the boiler expert tenant that saved big bucks on the fuel and therefore the rent does not need to go up next year.

109A_5 · July 11

All I was trying to say is the valves may have been functionally disabled to avoid people fiddling with them and causing a no (or insufficient) heat scenario, not your particular situation now. They may have just dilapidated and need repair.

For you to live comfortably something has to change or be repaired to better control the heat to your apartment.

Radiators make my apartment unbearable during winter

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