Radiators make my apartment unbearable during winter

wisco · July 6

Hi, I live in a third (top) floor in an apartment building in Wisconsin. We have radiators in every room of my apartment which runs from a boiler system. I believe there’s 10 or so apartments in the building which was built in 1943. I’ve suffered through two winters of temps over 80+ degrees F consistently. It gets worse the colder outside it is. I’m not able to open my windows for more than a few hours each day as I have cats and there are no screens. Even that doesn’t really help. I’ve tried turning the valves off and they still get alarmingly hot. What can I do? If anything?
I’m trying to figure out if I have a right to request the valves to be replaced. Would that be the right thing to request? Laws here only state a minimum temperature for heating. I’m thinking the state of this heating system would be considering ‘not working properly’ though. This would have to be done before October 15th when the heating is turned on and the local tenant rights center isn’t reachable so far. Any advice or clarification on what the problem may be would be greatly appreciated!

Jamie Hall · July 6

What type of heating system is this? Hot water? Steam? If steam, is there one pipe into the radiator and one out, or is there just one, with a little vent on the radiator? The approach to fixing the problem varies with what the system is.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 6

One Idea might be to cover the radiator with an insulated blanket.

There are some interesting variations to that idea. Some manufacturers have a cover made of sheet steel, painted to match the decor of the room. there are vents in the cover that can be opened if your room gets too cold and closed if the room gets too hot. There are several DIY projects that help to reduce the amount of heat from a radiator.

Lets find out if you have Steam or Hot Water radiators, and see it there is a mechanical issue that needs to be addressed as @Jamie Hall mentioned. Address that first, then once we know that your system is operating as best as possible, then we can try the covering idea.

Mad Dog_2 · July 6

Your building management needs to address this. If they fail to address it, get a Dr's Note that addresses your health concern about Hypothermia (excessive heat). That will put them in a corner. Mad Dog

retiredguy · July 6

There a lot of potential fixes or helps for you to try. I would ask the other tenants if they are experiencing the same problem of overheating. If they are, you could talk to the building owners or the people in charge of the building and tell them that fixing the problem would potentially save them a lot of money in operating costs as well as improving the buildings reputation for future tenants. Post a few pictures of the whole radiator so we can see what system you have. Follow the other guys recommendations such as covering the rads with towels or something to reduce the heat output. Maybe you could convince the owners to call one of the guys that live on this site. Many of them have years of experience with steam and hot water systems.

wisco · July 6

I’m not sure if it’s steam or water. I’m thinking water because the landlord had people come into bleed the radiators before turning them on the first year. Looks like there’s plumbing on both sides of it. I’m uploading pictures with this comment.

I’ve looked at covers, but most seem to be purely for aesthetic and that would be only as a last resort.

The other tenant on the third floor of our side of the building also experiences this but treats it as the norm. He also claims to be the “manager” of the building and receives close to free rent due to a mental disability of some sort in exchange for putting trash on the street and is supposed to salt the driveway, sidewalks, and stairs but will only use sand. He would not say anything to the landlord.
I’ve made the case of saving money to the landlord. His response if I ask too many times is for me to move out. He is lucrative and owns many buildings privately. I think he would rather just not be bothered. Getting him to fix my sink faucet was a nightmare.
He did have people come out to check the thermostats which are in the hallway on the first and second floor, but said there was nothing more he could do as the heat was already set at the lowest legal temperature of 67 degrees Fahrenheit. I brought up replacing the valves and never heard back.
I hate having to be persistent on this and really don’t want to cause trouble. I like my apartment very much, but the winters shouldn’t cause me grief year round by just the thought of the heat.

wisco · July 6

From the logo, I’m guessing it’s from the United States Radiator Corporation. It looks like the 6-tube Capital thin-tube radiator but it also looks wider than the pictures of models I’ve come across.

JUGHNE · July 6

Looks to be hot water heating.

The valves are designed such that even when off completely, there is still a small port to pass water thru to prevent freezing……it is working isn't it.

I would go for the blanket or heavy rug draped over the radiator. The max temp should be 180 or less. Use cotton or wool IMO.

The Dr.'s note may just get you on the undesirable tenant list and probably not be a battle you want to fight.

Or put some inside screens on some windows to save the cats.

HVACNUT · July 6

Thermostatic Radiator Valves are an option.

mattmia2 · July 6

The heavy blanket will fix the overheating. Perhaps discreetly contacting an attorney can solve the bullying.

Jamie Hall · July 6

That's a hot water system. Does the inlet valve on the radiator work? If so, close it… if it doesn't, get your maintenance people up there to get it working.

mattmia2 · July 6

Keep in mind the radiator and water in it will be hot so even after the water flow is stopped, if the valve is working, that mass of iron and water may still be hot for 10-30 minutes or so. The valve needs to seal pretty well, it wouldn't take much flow to keep that radiator hot.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 6

As I see it, the landlord is not going to spend any $$ on solving your problem. Thermostatic radiator valve is out of the question because that is not your responsibility and would involve draining the water out of the system in order to do that. You are not authorized to do that. A wool blanket over the radiator and leaving the windows open when it gets too hot in your apartment is the only actual temperature control you have. Leaving the windows open when you are not home on the third floor with metal bars to prevent entry might send a message to the landlord that you don't really care how hot he makes the room, you will Just let all that heat out the window so you stay comfortable.

You can even post a photo of leaving the window open on a very cold night to let everyone know that your apartment is too hot and this is your thermostat. Open window when the room is too hot, closed window when the room cools down too much. I have heard that this way of regulating room temperature is called the "Double Hung Thermostat" named after the double hung windows in many of those New York apartment buildings with your same problem.

If you plan on staying there for several years, and you want to get fancy, you can build (or have someone build for you) a custom cover for each radiator and restrict the openings at the top and bottom. That will reduce the heat output of those pesky radiators. If you make the openings adjustable with a damper, you can close them off 99% then adjust to opening as needed.

You can see the one on the right has smaller openings at the top and the bottom.

wisco · July 6

I can’t leave the windows open without monitoring them because of my cats and cannot afford to replace the screens. Even leaving the windows open all evening doesn’t seem to cool the apartment down much and as soon as I close the windows, the heat climbs quickly. My parent, who remodeled a Victorian home from the 1800s and has experience with some radiators, is the one who tried to turn the valves off and suspected that they were shot because they remained boiling hot for months.
My apartment being too hot is glaringly obvious from the outside as the windows frost over and quickly freeze shut from the water that runs down them from condensation and freezes around the base.
I need to know if this heating system would be considered to be “in working order”. I’m not trying to do any repairs myself. I’m trying to verify if these radiators are in need of repair and if this boiler system is working as it should.
If it is not working properly, then I would have grounds to pursue repair.
For all I know, the repair services for this building could be consulting this help site as it has been a problem for the last two winters here for me and I’m sure longer than that before.
Is there a way to confirm scheduled maintenance as required to be reported? Would this building being listed as having ‘forced air’ for heating as of 2024 by the local assessor be a way to forgo the required maintenance?

mattmia2 · July 6

Tenant's rights mostly come from state and local law, you would have to see what they say. I think HUD has jurisdiction if they are paying for part of it.

JUGHNE · July 6

When the valve handle is turned clockwise to off, does it come to a stop point or just spin around. Are you sure the stem is well connected to the handle/knob?

You could block the windows open only 2" and perhaps get enough cold air coming in and still contain the cats.

Or consider a small window fan about 1' square. Lower the window down onto it and block the sides with some kind of panels. Run the fan as needed.

wisco · July 6

The valve handle comes to a stop point. It seems the stem is well connected to the handle as there is a bit of resistance to it while turning.
I’ve tried having the windows open with a smaller gap but that doesn’t make much of a difference.
I would keep my window ac unit in if it wouldn’t damage it. A fan in its place might be possible.

I don’t feel that I should be responsible for working around something if it needs to be repaired. Especially when the secondary things I can do will not fully resolve the problem either.
I’m much more interested in making a case for addressing and fixing the problem directly.
I just need to get a better understanding of what is or isn’t working before I can go about reviewing current standards of boiler/radiator upkeep.

mattmia2 · July 6

It is the landlord's responsibility to fix it. the question is what the housing market and laws are if you force then to fix it, will they just get a different tenant and that is the part that this forum can't answer.

It is also possible that radiators near the thermostats have their valves closed or aren't heating for some other reason like air or a bad circulator, or there just aren't radiator near the thermostats. There are sort of 2 issues. 1 is why can't you turn off the flow to your radiators and 2 why is the system so far out of balance.

the technical fix is to fix/replace the valves or replace them with TRVs. We can't advise on the legal part.

wisco · July 6

Correct. I realize there could be retaliation which I would be protected from for 6 months at a minimum. Researching that aspect and knowing the risk are my responsibility.
I’m posting here for insight on the radiator and boiler aspect. Verifying if they are functioning correctly or not.
The thermostats are in the landing hallways of level 1 and 2. There are no thermostats within the apartments themselves. The landlord has blamed the door maybe being open sometimes, but I haven’t seen that.
Is it cheaper to just replace with normal valves? Is that the most reasonable fix to ask for? I don’t think I would need to have my radiators on at all to be comfortable.
Or, is changing the thermostat system a more appropriate fix? I imagine that would be more complicated and potentially costly in comparison? Currently, the landlord sets the temperature for the whole building and adjusts as necessary.

Jamie Hall · July 6

Have you even tried turning off the valves?

mattmia2 · July 6

in the short term fixing the valves is the cheapest. in the long term fixing the imbalance is the cheapest.

Long Beach Ed · July 6

If the valves don't close and the landlord isn't cooperative, you must take matters into your own hands:

Adjustable inside screens are $11 - $15 each. I give them to my tenants. If you can't afford that, nail $5 worth of chicken wire on the window casing.

Just throw blankets over the radiators, invest $30 in screens and stop complaining. Be thankful it's not 40-degrees in the place.

The money you save from the landlord not raising your rent due to complaining will pay for the chicken wire tenfold.

From a technical point of view, the landlord should properly balance the system, which would require him to maintain his stuff; something he doesn't care to do apparently. The hot water rises to the top of the building and without proper balancing often overheats the top units.

EdTheHeaterMan · July 6

Can I say this again? Or am I being redundant.

You might be able to get some quilted blankets at a Goodwill store or other second hand shops for $10.00 each. If you have 6 radiators, then you problem is fixed for $60.00

The other route is to call the local department of health, or equivalent government agency and show then the problem when it is happening. That means you will need to wait until next December or January to file an official complaint. The Government will not just take your word for it. The Government needs to send a civil servant with a clip board and a thermometer to verify your claim. And it needs to be excessive. like 90 or higher for there to be a real violation. Just complaining about 85° may not cut it because 85° is higher than the minimum 68° required by the health department and the rental laws on the books. I doubt that there is a maximum that is too high.

I wonder if a window air conditioner might help in your situation. Do you pay your own electric? If the electric is included in your rent, then plug in several window AC units to be comfortable.

hot_rod · July 7

quilted moving blankets are inexpensive at Harbor Freight

UHaul sells them also

JUGHNE · July 7

You are most likely suffering from gravity flow of the hot water from the boiler.

There are devices, called flow checks to prevent this problem. They may have failed or stuck and may be in the manual open position. Or the pump(s) are running constantly with the boiler maintaining 150-180 degrees.

In any event it sounds like your landlord will not pay to have any problems fixed.

Many tenants put up with a lot worse conditions. Some with steam have constant hammering and maybe cold radiators.

So I would not try to be the "squeaky wheel" too much. Buy the blankets and screens…..you owe it to the cats.

I, like many on this site am a landlord, IIWM, I would endeavor to fix these problems and realize savings in energy costs…..and a little better comfort for tenants…..not the first priority.

BTW, is this Section 8 housing?

wisco · July 7

Jamie Hall, please refer to my comment at 4:08 pm.

To all of you saying stop complaining, I realize others have it worse. Asking to have a dwelling in reasonable temperature parameters is not out of line. It’s a matter of ethics and general respect for the living conditions of human beings. If living in 80 degree temperatures is acceptable to you, then you’re welcome to adjust your own thermostat. Or, put your money where your mouth is and let’s trade houses.

I clearly asked for help with understanding the mechanisms of a boiler system with radiators and when repair is necessary. I did not ask for your opinion on what I should find acceptable.
I have everything documented from the last two years. Thought I’d save myself some research time by consulting experts. Didn’t realize this was The View for some people.

And, yes, both Eds seem to be redundant.

Thank you mattmia2 for the relevant commentary.

It’s not section 8 housing, but thank you for revealing your bias.

It’s amazing how I came here for advice relevant to a heating system and got the clicky preteen treatment for free from some of you.

This must be the highlight of your week. Inviting others to ask questions about heating and putting them down because you can’t help but assert your opinions outside of the subject. I’ve never known people worth while that practice behavior like that. You must feel so big.

Cheers

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

Let me just give my two cents. You should not need to live under such conditions. Doesn't matter if you are paying a million a month or ten dollars a month. Or anything in between. The landlords who are subjecting you to inhumane living conditions, to save a few bucks, have a special place in "not paradise" (see site rules).

That said, you need to be realistic. There is no way to get the underlying problem fixed, if the landlord is not on board. That is the unfortunate reality.

You can try to take the legal route, to force the landlord's hand. That can be long and aggravating and might not work.

You can try the heavy blanket route and see if that helps.

Maybe one screen, combined with occasionally leaving the front door open, to encourage air movement. Maybe leaving a few windows open a crack. Maybe fill the tub and a few buckets with cold water. Will absorb some of the heat.

Just to reiterate, you should not need to do these things. But the reality is what it is. I wish that there was more that I could do to help.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

I don't think that the section 8 reference was meant to be demeaning. There is certain leverage that you have, when the government is involved (I think).

mattmia2 · July 7

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1859587#Comment_1859587

and some federal rules about conditins that don't apply if the federal government isn't involved

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1859507#Comment_1859507

Hyperthermia.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

Maybe ask the landlord about moving the thermostat to one of the apartments. Or at least installing sensors in apartments. Are there radiators in the hallway? If not, makes sense that apartments are overheating. Unheated hallway will always be colder than heated apartments (and possibly over radiated apartments).

wisco · July 7

Thank you for being reasonable.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, I was looking for information on how the boiler system and radiators function. I am not asking for, nor do I want, advice on how to handle the landlord. This is ‘HeatingHelp’ not ‘Advice for renters’ or ‘Remedies instead of addressing heating problems’.

A few of you were helpful initially. One was helpful throughout. Not sure why some of you can’t discuss heating without resisting the urge to shove your opinions in other people’s faces.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

Maybe see if you can skip the radiator bleeding this season.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

I don't know anything about tenant law, or law in general. But I would think that the landlord is required to provide screens. Being able to open the windows, without worrying about bugs getting in, should be pretty basic.

wisco · July 7

No one came to bleed the radiators last winter which I thought was odd.
And, no, unfortunately the law here does not have stipulations for screens.. it’s a grey area for many things, but screens are something the landlord does not have to maintain. It varies highly by state and even county or school jurisdiction. The law is another matter entirely. What is does require is regular maintenance of boilers and specific criteria depending on when the boiler was put in. And, there is wording specific to functioning heating systems. This is why I inquired about the functionality of the heating system here.

109A_5 · July 7

The thermostat calls for heat.

The Boiler heats the water.

The heated water is circulated through the pipes and radiators. The radiators dissipates the heat into the space to be heated. This continues until the thermostat is satisfied.

Once the thermostat is satisfied the boiler operation and the circulation is disabled until the next call for heat.

Is this what you are looking for ?

mattmia2 · July 7

you'd have to look at the case law to figure out what functioning means here. there may be a definitions section of the law that defines it as well.

we would need to see what is happening in the boiler room and basement to take a guess at why the system is so out of balance. if a circulator is not working and it is just heating by gravity flow or a flow check is stuck open or manually opened, that would be easier to argue is a malfunction than a design issue like poor thermostat placement or unbalanced radiator sizes or piping that is too small to part of the building.

wisco · July 7

I’ve got the general function. But, by that logic, covering the radiators would prevent the thermostat from registering the heat threshold was reached and continue sending heat.

There is no specific wording from what I can gather. Of the many and wordy documents, legal websites, and won cases, the wording I’ve come across that is relevant is if it is deemed “in working order” or “functioning” as intended. It’s very case by case basis. I then thought that people knowledgeable about these specific heating systems would be good to consult on if the functioning is as intended or if it is not working correctly.

Are you familiar with this brand of radiator? Is United States Radiator Corporation known for design flaws with this style and year or in general? Would the boiler be from the same company or what companies were manufacturing boilers in the early 40s in this region? These are things I am not familiar with in terms of the range of the companies around throughout heating system ‘history’ and where. Is this something that professionals in the heating system world would know?

Where are flow checks typically located?

It sounds like a call to the local inspector is warranted from what you are saying.
The system is not functioning as desired, but it can’t be attributed to not functioning vs a design error, correct?
Is that true for the radiator valves? Shouldn’t turning the valves to off on the radiators at least reduce heat coming from them? Would no change in heat after turning the valves to off be an indication that they are not functioning correctly?

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

The first part, of this last post, might be somewhat inaccurate. Thermostat only knows the temperature of its particular location. For example, if there are 10 rooms and the thermostat is in room number four, it only knows the temperature of room number four. Or in your case, if the thermostat is in the hallway, it only knows the temperature in the hallway and only reacts based on that temperature. Covering your particular radiators would have zero effect on the thermostat.

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

Are there radiators, in the immediate vicinity of the thermostat?

STEAM DOCTOR · July 7

And just to reiterate, even though you are experiencing the symptoms of a messed up heating system in your particular apartment, there is a pretty good likelihood that the cause of the problem is located elsewhere. And always passable that there are a combination of factors.

Radiators make my apartment unbearable during winter

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