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Need advice: What type of HVAC system & capacity to install, 3-bedroom house

NYNorm
NYNorm Member Posts: 1

These are the options I am considering, based on contractor suggestions:

HEATING BOILER:
Retain existing boiler and add new gas conversion head (non-HE)
Existing Heating System installed Sept. 2010: Oil fired boiler, hot water boiler:
Peerless WBV-03 (not HE) boiler, 3 zones ,Honeywell 4006 Aquastat, Taco Relay, (3) Taco 007 circulators
or,
HEATING BOILER - install HE on demand boiler (possibly in combination with a mini-split heat pump system):
Three contractors recommended the following three systems, each has a $2,000. rebate from utility company:
HTP HE model UFT 140 Wall mounted boiler (140 KBtu, 95% AFUE) (recommend by: CENTA Plumbing)
Alpine ALP 150 (150 KBtu, 95% AFUE) (recommend by: (Glenn) Davis Plumbing)
Navien NCB-210 (100 KBtu, 95% AFUE) (recommend by: Yost & Campbell Heating & AC)
Navien is a combination unit including domestic hot water

HOT WATER:
Superstore Indirect fired storage tank model SSU-60 (60 gallon, lifetime warranty) (CENTA Plumbing) ($300. rebate)
HE On-Demand unit: Bosch / Rheem or A.O. Smith / Bradford White (models & capacity not specified)(Davis)
(but some told me will be inadequate for our usage) ($500 rebate)
(Existing: Hot Water is a 60-gallon, gas standard Rheem hot water heater (at least 20 years old, time to replace!)
Standard replacement (non-HE) standalone hot water heater ($200. rebate)

and/or
Mini-Split Heat Pump system, three units
plus, convert existing oil fired boiler head to gas (non-HE)

Note: gas service is adequate in the area. Utility company has issued written approval to proceed. Rebates for HE boiler will be approx. $3-4,000. Rebates for mini-split system will be approx. $400. per unit x 3 = 1,200. plus federal income tax credit ($300. - not sure if total or per unit): therefore, total mini-split rebate: $1,500 - 2,100. If both systems: $4,500 - 6,100.

Current Usage:
One kitchen, one full bathroom shower in tub, one powder room, three sinks total; clothes washer, dishwasher

Proposed Usage: Conversion to two-family. Two or three kitchens, Three full bathrooms, each with shower, toilet and sink; 2 clothes washers, 2 clothes dryers, 2 dishwashers or three dishwashers (one likely a mini)

Usage: I frequently have large family groups stay over, 15-20 people, where I add air beds in the basement and living room. I can expect all three showers going simultaneously for hour in the morning while others are cooking.

Location: New York City suburb
Existing house and layout / size / heat & AC distribution:
House: 1950 Three bedroom, semi-attached, colonial, with hot water radiators and hot water baseboards (newer sections)
First floor: 588 SF (original area) Living / Dining room combo, kitchen, sink & (no shower)
AC: Main area: single 14.1 KBtu Sears Kenmore window AC (2015), one ceiling fan, Heat: hot water radiators
First floor: 231 SF Rear extension to kitchen added with hot water baseboard heating
Laundry: Currently have a washer + gas dryer in the first floor extension. Kitchen: gas range with electric oven
AC: Receives some (inadequate) airflow from AC in main area of house
Second floor: 630 SF, 3 bedrooms, 1 full bathroom (tub with shower)
AC: Bedroom: three window ACs between 5 & 7.5 KBtu, (5 to 10 years old), 2 ceiling fans, Heat: hot water radiators
Finished basement 630 SF with hot water baseboard heating, portable 12-14 KBtu dehumidifier / AC
Total above grade: 1,450 SF. Total including basement: 2,080 SF

I would like advice on which system / equipment is most practical for each of three scenarios:

Scenario I: Keep the overall house size and configuration as-is, but convert from 1.5 to 3.0 bathrooms (three showers).
Convert to HE or standard gas conversion heat?
Install with mini-split heat pumps and gas conversion for supplemental heat (HE or Standard)?
Indirect or HE Domestic hot water system
Scenario II: Enlarge to three full bathrooms as above (enlarge main floor powder room, plus add full bathroom in basement.)
plus, Add second kitchen either in basement or second floor as part of conversion to two-family house,
including a second washer, dryer and dishwasher in the second kitchen
Scenario III: Same as Scenario II above, plus adding a third kitchen (second floor), enlarged rear extension
and additional attic bedroom. The added areas would have hot water baseboard and/or mini split heat pump
Total size above grade: 1,780 SF. Total including basement: 2,710 SF
Scenario III includes: 3 kitchens, 3 dishwashers, 2 clothes washers/dryers, 3 full bathrooms with showers
Additional heat in attic:

I am thinking of doing these in stages as above, but want to have adequate heat and AC systems. I am assuming if using mini-split heat pumps I can use three to start and add an additional one or two later.

Also, this confuses me:
Utility approval calls for an upgraded meter bar, which the contractors all mentioned would be needed.
The contractors all said I would be required to upgrade ALL gas plumbing in the house from 1/2" to 3/4" or 1 1/4" at a cost of thousands of dollars. The utility Con Edison showed me their specs book and said that would absolutely NOT be required. Who is right? Is it possible there is a NYC building code that Con Edison doesn't know about?

thanks so much. I know this is a welter of information, but I imagine more makes it easier to recommend correctly.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,265
    First, a note -- we don't talk price here...

    Having said that. The very first thing to do is to determine the heating loads for the various zones. Without that information, you really won't be able to size any of the equipment properly.

    With regard to the mini-splits, they work very well, and people have been happy with them -- in the shoulder seasons and for air conditioning. You will have to have full capacity hot water heat, though, since they lose efficiency pretty fast when it gets down in the design temperature range -- if the work at all -- and that's exactly when you need the most heat.

    And last -- others will comment, I'm sure, on the various heat and hot water sources -- there are numerous code issues involved in converting a residence to a two family. You may or may not want to be the general and architect wrestling with those issues...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • BradHotNCold
    BradHotNCold Member Posts: 78

    is there such a thing as a central HVAC UNIT THAT IS ALSO A HEAT PUMP? Seems like I recall seeing a previous note on here that perhaps BOSCH was developing one?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,793

    Yes. My mother has a Carrier heat pump that looks and acts just like a central air condensor unit but also can provide heat. It's like 15 years old. This is a solved problem.

    For your domestic hot water, do not install an indirect. The cost is astronomical. Just use a standalone water heater, natural gas, heat pump, or even straight electric.

    For your boiler, maybe there is some magic solution out there, but for me it will always be a standard efficiency natural gas atmospheric. They run and run and run and are easily fixed when something like the thermocouple fails. It seems to me that these HE models can't possibly compete given their maintenance requirements and short lives, regardless of efficiency.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Long Beach EdEdTheHeaterManPC7060SuperTech
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,798
    edited July 4

    Since you are legally converting this building to a two family, much would depend on where you live and if you were one of the residents. Who is paying for heating? What is your return on equipment investment? How do your choices affect resale value? Can you repair this stuff yourself when it breaks down on Christmas Eve and your tenants are cold?

    I've run apartments for decades, and my tenants never lost more than a couple of hours of heat. I do my own maintenance and most of the equipment will last for thirty or more years. I stock all the parts I'll ever need. It's all about quality of life when you are in the rental business.

    When you're a landlord, economics, service life and dependability rule your choices.

    PC7060
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,386

    this thread is 9 years old.

    EdTheHeaterManLong Beach EdSuperTech
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,866
    edited July 4

    @ethicalpaul indicates "For your domestic hot water, do not install an indirect." and I will disagree with this every time he says it. Sorry Paul

    There are conventional water heaters that are connected to chimney vents to exhaust the unwanted fumes and byproducts of combustion. This is where I will start because this is a very common gas water heater and is usually the least expensive water heater to install.

    1. Water tank is usually insulated with 1" of fiberglass between the tank and the outer metal jacket
    2. There is a BIG air hole in the bottom of the tank to let air in to the combustion chamber so the gas can mix with air and burn
    3. There is a hole in the center of the tank to let the fumes and byproducts of combustion travel thru the tank in order to exchange heat from the flame thru the metal hole in the middle to the water inside the tank.
    4. There is a pipe that connects the hole in the center of the tank to the chimney. That connector pipe takes the byproducts of combustion and lets them exit the home to the outdoors so you don't get sick or die from breathing those fumes.  

    Now that is all well and good but that particular design of heating water is not very efficient while it is burning (about 68 to 72% combustion efficiency) but there is another bigger loss of energy with that tank system. You see, that burner is not operating 24 hours a day.   It may only operate about 2 hours a day when the home is occupied and the residneeta are taking showers and washing dishes and the like.   If you are out of town for several days, the tank will operate the burner up to 30 minutes a day just to keep the water in the tank hot enough to take a shower whenever you happen to come home.  

    The other 22 hours of each day, all those holes in the tank are still connected to the chimney, even when the burner is not operating.   And when the tank contains 120° to 130° water, and all those air holes are connected to that chimney,  that hot water will exchange in the opposite directions as cool basement air gets sucked into the BIG hole in the bottom and leaves a little warmer by the time it reaches the chimney. Stand by loss is greatest in that type of water heater, and causes the water temperature to drop so the burner must run for 5 to 10 minutes every 4 to 6 hours each day just to make sure the tank has that 130° water in case you decide the you want a shower at 3:00 AM or at 12:45 PM  or you want to do a load ow hot water laundry on any given tuesday. 

    So lowest cost water heater = highest waste of fuel.   

    So pay a little more for less waste, Right?

    Now there are tanks that use electricity that do not connect to a vent pipe so they have lower standby loss. The problem is that in most places, Electric rates are so much higher than gas, that it is less expensive to buy a cheap gas automatic water heater and waste fuel.   There are other electric water heaters that do not vent.  The heat pump water heaters, still not perfected in my opinion.  There are also on demand water heaters that use an enormous amount of electricity for the time that the water is being used, then turn off as soon as the faucet or tap is closed and the water stops flowing.   That means there is no storage tank to have any standby loss.   There are also on demand (called tankless) gas water heaters that eliminate the stand by loss problem because there is no water stored in a tank to have that standby loss.  

    There are other, more efficient tank type water heaters that cost more for all the features that make them more efficient.  Just variations on the same vented tank theme.   

    Now we come to the indirect.   If you are purchasing a high efficiency gas boiler that is large enough to heat your home, say 70,000 BTU input, and you connect that super efficient burner to a zone that is connected to a water tank that has no vent (one of the big plus features of electric water heaters) you end up with a very efficient burner (much more efficient that the lower price Gas automatic water tank that operates as low as 68% combustion efficiency and has all that venting for increased stand by loss). Now you are making hot water more efficiently than any other gas water heater, and at a much lower cost than an electric water heater of any type.  

    After making that hot water faster because the burner is larger than the typical gas automatic water heater, and more efficiently that the inexpensive burner in that vented water heater tank, you get to store that hot water in a tank that has a much longer warranty, much longer life expectancy, much better insulation to keep that heat from escaping, and will stay hot for up to 20 hours before needing the burner to charge that tank with more heat as a result of the standby loss.  

    Like Paul, I like to prove my point, but I didn't have the luxury of video back in the day.  I used electric timers that clocked the time electricity was powering a circulator or a gas valve or an oil burner.  These timers indicated that my buderus 30 gallon indirect, When the home was unoccupied, would not call for recovering from stand by loss for as long as 20 hours on some days.  So I believe that the indirect is one of the most efficient ways to heat water and store hot water compared to any other tank system, and is better at providing faster recovery when using hot water. And I like it better than instant / tankless water heaters.  

    I do agree with Paul that it is not a good idea to purchase an indirect water heater in some cases.  Let's say you have an old coal converted boiler with an inefficient conversion burner.  A Gas automatic 40 gallon tank water heater would be the better choice.  You don't want to crank up that dinosaur in the middle of the summer with its total combustion efficiency of less that 50%, just to heat up 30 gallons of hot water.  That would be a bad idea.       

    So all in all, Paul is pretty smart.  I just disagree about indirect water tanks.  They are IMHO a great source of domestic hot water. 

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    PC7060SuperTech
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,866

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,793

    it would be good if the forum software closed threads after a couple years

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,370

    Agree that HPWH have a way to go in my opinion. I don't think a GHWT is that bad yes there is flue gas loss. I used to shut the one off at my house when I went on vacation I would turn it to pilot and the water was still warm a week later with no one drawing on it.

    Electric is better at holding heat but with higher operating cost.

    I see nothing wrong with an indirect. You supposed to maintain temp in the indirect not the boiler.

    SuperTech
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,793

    Yes, maintain temp in the indirect, but you have to heat up the boiler to do that.

    What do you base your opinion of HPWH on, Ed?

    I, an unskilled homeowner, installed mine 5+ years ago and it is still running great on very little electricity.

    Electric is better at holding heat but with higher operating cost.

    How much higher? We know resistive electric is 100% efficient at putting heat into the water tank. Gas, as the other Ed mentioned above is constantly losing heat up the chimney, even when it's not running at 83% or whatever.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,370
    edited July 7

    Yes electric resistance is 100% efficient but usually (maybe not now) costs more to run than gas.

    As far as new technology water heaters (tankless and HP):

    We don't see many posts with problems with standard gas and electric tanks

    We see quite a few posts on tankless and HP problems (mostly tankless)

    Tankless needs a big gas pipe and its almost always a water flow issue of some type or a scaled HX. A lot of this probably has to do with water quality

    HP water heaters:

    Right now the ac & refrigeration stuff is fraught with problems. Changing to newer refrigerants that are not readily available or the price is so high you choke on it. I don't know what refrigerant is in HPWH.

    With AC everything is changing to R-454B which many have posted is in short supply and if you find it may cost $1000 for 20 lbs. Some units use R-32 which is less $ maybe $250 for 20 lbs. We have had several post about 'HPWH running on resistance" weather its a control issue or something in the programming or the HP can't keep up it doesn't much matter its a service call to fix it and who do you call?

    The quality of the equipment:

    I bought 2 new through the wall AC within the last 5 years. Both failed. 1 was a GE with a bad compressor that ran 4 years then failed and is out of warranty. The other was a Friedrich that failed after 1 year (leak) and I just got a warranty replacement.

    Friedrich says "we don't fix anything 1 ton and under" throw it out.

    So a HPWH is treated like a window unit. Its an expensive throw away appliance. Like a MOD CON that 8 years old and you can.t get parts for it, or if you can it needs a $1000 blower assembly. How much fuel savings do you need to offset the cost of the parts?

    Maybe you and I can fix things most HO can't. Furnace blower motors are all ECM and cost $100s of dollars.

    But back to the HPWH and we are talking about the average HO here.

    He has a plumber install it and it works ok.

    After a year he has an issue. lets say it lost its charge and is under warranty so the MFG says replace it with a new one. Now he gets a labor bill. Whatever fuel savings he had is gone. So it a crap shoot. Its like a window unit. No one is going to fix a refrigeration problem because someone shows up with there tools and it already exceeds the price of a HPWH and the plumber that installed it probably doesn't do refrigeration

    We had a guy in town who ran the local HVAC supply house and he used to say "why buy high efficiency for AC. in the northeast they don't run enough to be cost effective"

    If you watch you tube videos on AC service calls its a common call to have a bad capacitor. Why? They used to last 20 years hardley ever had to change them. Now its about the most commo service call there is. They are junk. Motors are another issue although they seem to last the price for ECM motors is high. Evaporator leaks are common now and they never used to be, microchannel condenser failures

    I can't see putting more $$$ into high efficiency until it becomes more reliable. Its getting so all the equipment is junk.

    Larry WeingartenSuperTechethicalpaul