Old HP system failed: new refrigerant choice? new equipment reliability?
Retired (non-HVAC) Mech Engineer. Good understanding of HVAC system configurations and cycles, including vapor injection compressors for "cold climate" HPs. Spent two years trying to arrange for A2W hydronic system replacement but cost is still a barrier and I'm reconsidering a ducted replacement. Quotes still very high & at age 76 I'm not going to get payback….. Electricity rates going up fast…. Natural gas not available. Western Virginia mixed climate.
I'm hearing 454B is in short/expensive supply; R32 more readily available. Can't get R290 yet; bummer! Also hearing new equipment reliability is poor. Who is making the "good stuff" and which refrigerant should I choose?? (Note: most reasonable proposal so far is Bosch 20 SEER.)
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R-290 is strictly refrigeration not comfort cooling.
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What is wrong with the old one? The refrigerant choice probably has little to do with the system efficiency or reliability if it is engineered to that refrigerant. Not sure about leaks. I suppose you could pressure test everything but the condenser for a few weeks, it is likely the leaks are there from the factory.
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This is the wrong time to buy. It seems reliability and the new equipment and new refrigerants are not very compatible right now. If I was going to make a choice I might buy Goodman. Last I knew they were R-32 and do not use the ill fated microchannel coils. In the past they (Goodman) had a reputation of being cheap crap. Now everything is expensive crap
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I got the last 2 ton 410 system at the local supply house to replace Mom's condenser.
It was literally less than the cost of two juggies of 454B. 🤯
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R290 is common in residential monobloc HP in Europe and Asia, for years now. Not yet approved here.
22 yr-old retrofit system is Carrier R22 single speed (electric resistance boost for 3-ton unit) with variable speed fan in AHU (in attic). AHU fan motor/module died. I'm trying to get all ducts and equipment (and aluminum wiring) out of the attic for sealing/insulation improvement but not enough headroom in the basement for normal duct work; town inspector won't approve. Alternative to hydronics may be AHU in the basement and ducted to/thru the attic (1960s ranch). Manual J design heating load is 50k; cooling 29k.
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basement……. ducted mini split.
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Only Issue I am having with the new refrigerant is sourcing 20lb cylinders of R-454b. We have been selling both R-454b and R-32 equipment without issue, we also still have a very large stock of 410a equipment though, which has seriously helped us with the A2l tank shortage. Between the 2 new refrigerants there won't be any noticeable differences to the end user, assuming you are comparing like for like equipment, and the differences to the installer are pretty much non-existent beyond the shortage of 20lb tanks of R454b. I recently installed some 410a equipment for myself but really I only went that route because it helps move some of that stock off our shelves before the end of the year when we aren't allowed to install it anymore.
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Is it reasonable to assume 410A will be readily available for service and at a decent price for 10-15 years?
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Thanks to all who have responded. I was hoping for more insight but I'll try to wrap this up with just three more questions. I've heard the "everything is expensive 'junk' now" sentiment here and elsewhere and no one has endorsed a brand/Mfg or two. As the non-HVAC engineer/consumer it seems the amount of information available is overwhelming but the quality of information is often suspect. The best I've been able to do is query the EnergyStar database where test data is supposed to be objective. Performance data is there but nothing about reliability. So… 1) just take a shot in the dark and accept the best-value proposition I can get from a local contractor? 2) Stay away from some brands? 3) It is widely reported that manufacturers are raising cooling coil temperatures to boost efficiency numbers and thus sacrificing dehumidification performance; are there any companies not doing that?
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1) just take a shot in the dark and accept the best-value proposition I can get from a local contractor?
You are purchasing a service not a product, you should hire the best contractor.
2) Stay away from some brands?
Honestly no…. hire the best contractor for the job, all major brands are going to be somewhat similar in the unitary HVAC world. Techs have preferences for service etc, but if you are hiring a company to service that part has little impact on you as a homeowner. For brands the primary factor you should be concerned with is warranty, everything else is install
3) It is widely reported that manufacturers are raising cooling coil temperatures to boost efficiency numbers and thus sacrificing dehumidification performance; are there any companies not doing that?
Not that I've heard… maybe in testing but not in the field? Bottom line if customers are uncomfortable the manufacturer is almost always the target, if the units don't dehumidify then they don't do their job. Proper design of the system is key to control humidity the equipment only does so much of that task.
If you just want a brand endorsement then buy my brand. lol. But seriously in my area my brand is great because I have local parts and support, in your area local parts and support might be offered better by a different brand. Remember, you are buying a service (the contractor), not an appliance! All the main brands are good. Carrier, Daikin, Trane, Lennox and all their sub brands are great products, quite a few other brands as well but you can find one of those, or their many many sub brands in any market. And to reiterate my earlier comment, the type of refrigerant really has no impact to you, the end user, with the exception of the current availability issue of 20lb A2L cylinders which led to a short term shortage of R-454b.
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Yes, there are some brands to stay away from. I went to a 4 million dollar house yesterday for no AC and found a Mr. Cool system. Only a year old. No codes. The client said the installer does know the issue. Neither do I. I dont have an app for Mr. Cool. Have a nice day. No charge. So the brand comes back to the contractor.
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I keep trying to convince my boss that we should decline to service any Mr Cool or DIY mini split systems. I've never seen one installed in a decent manner. We lose money on the diagnostic fee because it takes forever sometimes to figure out the problem, tech support is non-existent. And the customer can usually buy a new unit for what we have to charge to replace the boards in the unit. I don't know why we bother with them. If someone wants to install that junk themselves don't call me to repair it please.
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Any call we Look but do not get too involved. Explain these systems are not supported. Bill for the service call and move on. If they don't pay, they go on the no service list. We don't want clients like that anyway.
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So correct my understanding here. You know that you don't service Mr. Cool, but you drive out there to look at it then bill for the service call? Is it that you didn't know it was Mr. Cool before you rolled out?
And if the customer does pay for being told "we don't service those", then they get to stay on the customer list…of a company that won't provide them any service…?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
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Pick a brand that is well supported in your area.
For the last 30-40 years around here that was Nortek. One supply house sold them and always had the parts on hand. Every service tech around here used that brand for "side jobs" family, friends etc and everyone seemed very happy and the equipment held up well. I seldom herd of any complaints Condensing unit and AHU in my house that I sold 5 years ago had 33 year old equipment with no issues and no sign of stopping. Never needed any parts at all.
I installed a furnace and Ac in my brothers house over 20 years ago. so far AC needed a new capacitor, the furnace needed a gas valve and a pressure switch. All Nortek.
At my cousins house I installed a new furnace and AC. Probably 18 years old. So far a capacitor in the AC and a blower motor in the furnace.
There heat exchangers have (or had) a lifetime warranty.
I changed a HX in a furnace (Nortek) for my niece. She was not the first owner but they covered it. HX was free just had to pay freight. It failed because the original installer undersized the ductwork which I fixed.
The stuff just ran. But most of that is 15+ year old equipment. That supply house got bought out so they are selling Rheem now
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OK interesting. It seems like a good question to ask but what do I know!
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el2 -
Again, thanks everyone. I plead guilty to paralysis by analysis, my weakness perhaps. Back to comments from GGross: I fully understand that good advice because I spent my carrier of over 50 years in multiple industries, companies & institutions doing design, manufacturing, production/process engineering, facilities engineering and management. Over 20 final years was in institutional facilities management and construction at a small college and then a major university; this included university research labs and data centers (both conventional under-floor plenum cooling by Liebert units and a new data center where high-power server racks were water cooled). However, in those environments we dealt primarily with vetted engineering consultants, contractors and architects and we had client-friendly and enforceable contracts, which I did enforce. The mantra I preached to my subordinates was "you get what you inspect, not what you expect."
I find the residential contractor environment full of minefields and inflated pricing. It's hard to identify really good contractors (or if they are good they are too busy and can't get to you for months). I'm in a small city (actually a town; the largest in VA where cities are not part of counties but towns are). We have only one independent residential/commercial HVAC contractor universally praised for good workmanship and service; I have a quote from them: $35+k for 2000 sq.ft. house retrofit (Mitsubishi). I have two other quotes so far - over $30k - from companies beholden to their private equity bean-counter ownership. Hard to swallow for a retired guy who knows what equipment and material costs really are. (Don't even talk to me about replacement window ripoffs!) I have little choice but to turn to smaller independent contractors who have less overhead.
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I am at an age where the cost of labor and material seems way out of wack.
But, I also ran my own business for 8 years back in the 80s-90s. Things add up real fast.
I just went through this myself. I needed a new storm door which an Anderson is about $400. Got a quote from a contractor who wanted $1100. I thought it was really high so I did it myself.
- Go to lumberyard and order door & wait 10 days for it to show up.
- Remove tools & stuff from truck to make room for door. (truck has a truck cap) and lug tools to basement.
- Pick up door at lumberyard
- Remove old door
- Install new door
- Cut up old door and take to metal scrap yard. $15.50
- Put tools back in truck, lug them up from basement.
Yeah maybe a contractor would not have to go through all those steps.
But he has a truck, tools, liability insurance, workers comp, overhead , profit and truck insurance.
Somebody has to pay for that stuff.
$1100. was probably not an unreasonable price
No one should bash a contractors price without analyzing it.
Try it yourself.
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I started being a Nortek/Nordyene dealer about 30 years ago. I seemed to be a fair product back then, but then got into the race to the bottom and was looking to be the winner.
A condensing furnace that kept locking out on pressure switch. After a lot of dancing it was obvious that the inducer fan was too weak. Motor too small. Replacement with more power was available, but factory would not admit they cut too many corners with cheaper motor. They wanted the entire furnace returned. New furnace installed, had motor with more amp draw and power. Otherwise furnace was identical. No labor allowed.
TXV plugged on HP coil, replacement TXV would require changing/brazing all distributor tubing. Wholesale house sent complete coil with new TXV, no charge. The factory was not aware of this. Wholesale house was phasing out that brand because of lack of Nortek service to them.
New higher end condensing furnace had a severe dent/gash in top of heat exchanger. Packaging was pristine/virgin, not a mark on the cardboard. Obvious it was done at the factory and easy to spot. Quality control certainly missed it. Had to return for new.
Just more and more items like this showed up in the last 10 years I used their product.
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They seemed to hold up well around here and most all the service techs in the area used them and were pretty happy with them. But I have been retired for 6 years and havent installed a Nortec in about 15 years. The supply house here that sold them dropped them (or got dropped) and switched over to Rheem.
I did have a Miller oil furnace (I think Nortek owns them) that we replaced in a trailer that the old Miller had a bad HX. Replaced it with a new Miller and it drove us nuts. The old lady still smelled oil. Thought she was nuts…she wasn't
We finally took the furnace out in the driveway and took it apart and the new HX had a spot with an open weld that they missed. Returned the furnace for a new one
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