Restoring One Pipe -- finally

ethicalpaul · April 23

I know some reasons, I was curious what his reason was 😅

Long Beach Ed · April 23

If you are designing for reliability, go with a standing pilot and float low water cutoff. You may want to nix the electric flue damper too. Have a spare thermocouple on the shelf and maintain your stuff.

This will eliminate all electronics and you'll be able to restore heat after an outage or power surge in ten minutes with a wrench and screwdriver.

Just understand the trade-offs and be familiar with the liabilities and benefits of your choices.

Most of our commercial and government work is designed this way for dependability.

——My own buildings are wired for easy backup power from portable battery/inverter packs that can enable gas controls on a steam system for a day between recharging. (Look into Jackery products). They provide 120VAC, so electronic controls are no problem.

cgutha · April 25

I need to clean the inside of the boiler.

i believe it was installed around the turn of the century. the neglect is impressive; the feed water pump was full of mud. I would be looking at rust, mud, scaling, definitely not as pretty as ethicalpaul's boiler

cgutha · April 28

(I'm not judging here, it's not easy, that's why there's a whole trade for it)

This is not for novices, do not try this at home.

fourth attempt, still leaks between the same sections. I will try again tomorrow, I am not pulling them apart, I disconnected the piping. too many pits in the mating surfaces maybe.

ethicalpaul · April 28

Were the sections already leaking before you started this restoration? Have you seen them yet? They may be rotted out at/near the connection points.

If you did pull them apart (I kind of doubt you did), they might remain apart and leaking even with the pipes removed.

I think it being rotted out already is more likely, it looks like a lot of rust on the burners. Did you overfill it to see if it's leaking at the top of the sections?

mattmich · April 28

@ethicalpaul
Regarding the idea of keeping the pH very high — that will not work with Weil-McLain; the "O rings" between sections will disintegrate. I don't have a link but this has been discussed; I think the safe upper value was 9 or 9.5.

The point may be mute for this particular specimen…

And not to sidetrack this thread: Paul, why is your water so clear if you use 8-way to set the pH? I'm at 9 or 10 and my water is also clear but appropriately "violet."

ethicalpaul · April 28

I don't think I have ever said people should keep their pH "very high". You should put it higher than 7 for sure. And yes, WM does set a pretty small upper value. Some people have said that was because of their elastomer rings but I am highly skeptical that 10 or 11 pH hurts them. Above 11 or so a different kind of iron oxidation can start to occur so right now my sweet spot is 9-10, but even 8 is way better than 7.

I have one of WM's gasket rings sitting in high pH water for several months now with no sign of damage, but this isn't in the high heat of a boiler, either, so it's admittedly not very persuasive.

I do use 8-way but in that video I wasn't using it at that time for uninteresting reasons. At that moment I was using a pH booster used for pools that doesn't have a pH indicator marker in it.

cgutha · April 29

Okay, here is the stark photo. Funny how pictures tell the reality and not the image I have in mind.

Here are the details: Two 2" risers, Max output: 875 sq ft steam, or 215 lbs per hour. Elevation 1000 ft. I am using 26.78 cu ft / lb steam at startup.

Rate of steam rising out of the 2" risers: 34.3 ft / sec. Risers rise 45" above the water line, travels eight inches then drops 14". Speed in the first part of the three-inch header is 15.6 ft/sec. the second part is 31.2 ft/second.

The diagonal pipe coming out of the header is a steam separator taken from the book "Superheater" from the Superheater company, Chicago Illinois, I do not remember the printing date. The book and the library from which I borrowed it no longer exists. It is the "hump" found on steam engines. I always wanted to build one, so there it is. Dan mentioned something like this on page … well somewhere where some old timers place a copper kettle before the main. It is a separator. In this case I made it out of a two-foot 6" pipe, with a specified takeoff about two thirds the distance, the takeoff has a slit in the pipe I will have to draw a picture.

The speed of steam in this separator is 8 ft/sec.

The steam then exits into the 3" main at 31.2 ft / sec.

This wraps around the house as old coal mains did, reducing to 2" when the speed drops to 12.5 ft/sec in the three-inch main. The speed then increases to 24.5 ft/sec in the two-inch main.

Through the doorway, you can see the 14th riser. then the end tee for the end of main vent. It just happens to return between the boiler risers, and the drop header. comes to the near side of the boiler where it drops into the 2" Hartford loop, then the equalizer.

The hope is to reach the ideal where Dry steam leaves the header at 215 degrees, and Saturated water returns through the Hartford loop at or near 212 degrees.

The water makeup enters at the Hartford loop through a 3/8ths manual valve take from the hot water heaters. this will drive some of the calcium and oxygen out of the makeup water. I do not presently have a water softener, but it is in the plans. the hot water will of course be softened. The city water is alkaline at about 8 or 9 ph.

I need a few more hangers, and when it is tested, insulation.

However, my time for this winter project is up. I will be working overtime for the next month. after which time, I need to get my upstairs projects finished. (like the roof). So, since I still have a leak in the boiler sections, and i took another look at the scale, I will disassemble it again and give it an acid bath. A dirty boiler is not only inefficient, but dangerous. Why install all these energy efficient devices then use a boiler with a quarter inch scale in it? No. got to do it right.

I must admit however, all the water I have placed in her to test it has loosened the scale some.

I still have a long way to go. I have the new burners, but only half the trim. and I wonder if using the old is worth it. maybe get all new and lose any worry.

ethicalpaul · April 29

My advice, don't over-focus on the math. Just see how close to the manufacturer's recommendation the pipe is. They did the math. It's been running for decades, I wouldn't mess with the pipes until you replace the boiler. I just realized you replaced a section in this boiler? I would be highly nervous about the viability of that…another section could be about to go after all. But I wish you the best result!

ChrisJ · April 29

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1853847#Comment_1853847

Ok I'm gonna be that guy.

The phrase is "The point is moot".

The point is mute doesn't make sense, it's there but can't be heard?

I mean this respectfully. This isn't a shot or an insult.

mattmich · April 29

Gah!
Thank you. I know better. My wife was right all along, I AM going senile.

» This isn't a shot or an insult.

I'm not worried about the insult. I'm worried I'm losing it…I care about this sort of stuff and am a snob about it, too, so this is a bad sign.

cgutha · April 30

Yes, the first (right as I look at the front, also the inlet side) was cracked. it has been replaced. The remainder of the sections appear to be solid.

The mating surfaces are pitted, but wire brush and Forma gasket…

There is a strange phenomenon I cannot explain. when I disassemble to look for the leaks, I discover missing gaskets. I cannot imagine leaving any out, but I am the only one working on this. I do not know, maybe they fling out when I set the next section on. The alterative explanation is equivalent to Matmich's comment. Anyway, extra careful this time.

But the pitting bothers me. This might be a dead dog. Anyway, one more time,

The water in town is about 8.5ph.

cgutha · May 4

Success!

This time, after wire brushing each section, I allowed 24 hours between sections. After tightening the half section to the recommended 55 ft lbs, I waited another 24 hours, then I put the two sections together, and waited. moved the core and tightened again.

It holds water. but I did not get it up to 55 psi on account of pinholes in my welds — those I can easily take care of. The core holds water. I can go on to the next step:

clean the core.

I am looking at Qwik Products Concentrated Descaler Solution QT7710 in 1 gal bottles. one gal makes six. Any comments on this?

JUGHNE · May 4

I don't know about ND, but in Nebraska any boiler in a commercial building gets an inspection from the state. Every year or two.

And from all I have read, welding on a pressure vessel can only be done by certified companies and then a record of those repairs maintained.

So I am sure your boiler jacket will cover any obvious welds.

Restoring One Pipe -- finally

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