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Relocate Well Water Tank & increase PSI

djclkirl
djclkirl Member Posts: 10

Hello

I’m looking to relocate my well water pump tank 40 feet to our basement utility room. The room houses an oil furnace, hot water tank, water spin-down filter, water micro-filter, and salt water softener. 

The Basement is unfinished - so I plan to cut the floor and extend the 3/4” inch PVC pipe to the new location. 

Our house water PSI is approx 30 PSI. 

My wife would like to increase our water pressure for showering purposes. She also asked if doing so would allow us to install water sprinklers for our lawn. Today, we painfully water the lawn section by section. 

  1. What factors do I need to take into consideration when relocating the tank? 
  2. Can a pump be installed to increase the water pressure in the home?
  3. Factors to consider before installing water sprinklers, e.g., Should I increase the water tank size and save a smaller tank that would cut in/out constantly when water is requested? 

Thanks

DJ

Comments

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,328

    First off, please do not use PVC for domestic water. PEX/Poly or hard pipe with mechanical joints would be ideal, but CPVC at the very least. Your existing well pump is what creates the pressure- it's often as simple as adjusting the pressure switch, or just replacing it to higher pressure one. Most are a 30-50 so if you have 30 now, you may very well be able to adjust it up to 50.

    Intplm.
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,590

    Don't go to all of that trouble and expense. You can add and adjust your pressure switch to a greater pressure. You can purchase a 60/40 pressure switch giving you a 60psi top end pressure with a 40psi cut in/pump on pressure.

    You can even do this with what you currently have. Adjusting the pressure switch to say, a fifty seventy psi adjustment can do all of what you are asking including the sprinkler system.

    However. The age of your pump, tank and well can be a factor as they might not be able to take these adjustments.

    If things are in good shape and are not too old and your well has a good recovery rate then I would simply adjust the pressure switch. And once that is done charge your tank to two (2) psi below the cut in setting with no water in it.

    A few questions:

    What is the model and type of tank?

    What type of pump? Submersible? Jet pump?

    What type of well? Shallow dug well? Drilled deep well? How deep is it and what is the static water level? Have you ever run out of water?

    Does the pump maintain a pressure within the current psi setting? Or does it cycle between the settings.

    GroundUpdjclkirl
  • djclkirl
    djclkirl Member Posts: 10
    edited January 3
  • djclkirl
    djclkirl Member Posts: 10
    edited January 3

    a) yes, 3/4” inch black poly pipe

    b) while looking up the water tank name, I noticed my typo. Water pressure is 50 PSI.

    A few questions: 

    What is the model and type of tank?

    • Amtrol WX-255 Well-X-Trol

    What type of pump? Submersible? Jet pump?

    • 4” inch submersible pump

    What type of well? Shallow dug well? Drilled deep well? How deep is it and what is the static water level? Have you ever run out of water?

    • The well was here when we bought the 10 years ago. House built in 1976.
    • Looking at old paperwork, 4” pump was installed in 2004.
    • Approximately 125 feet in depth - however, I’m checking other papers as I thought it was 331 feet.
    • Thankfully no, never ran out of water.

    Does the pump maintain a pressure within the current psi setting? Or does it cycle between the settings.

    • yes, maintains pressure. But I have never timed the cycle fill time once it cuts in.
    • Tapping the lower 1/3 of the tank with my knuckles, it’s hollow, not as hollow as the top above the bladder line.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,865

    You should be all set if you just adjust the pressure switch. You can probably crank up the one you have if need be. If you do crank it up, though, you will also need to reset the pressure tank pressure: drain the tank completely (hopefully there is a valve and a drain… otherwise you'll need to drain down the system), reset the air pressure through the Schrader valve (an air compressor will make this quicker, but I've know patient folks to do it with a hand tire pump…) to, as said, about two pounds below your new cutin pressure, reconnect and go ahead.

    A caution, however, on lawn sprinkling: it is quite possible, if using several sprinklers, to exceed the capacity of the well pump. Don't.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,590
    edited January 3

    What @Jamie Hall says above but for one thing. The sprinkler system can be run as long as the timing is correct and the quantity of heads that are used on each zone are properly sized.

    @djclkirl you are in pretty good shape. And in the future when you put in the sprinkler system, tie the water supply in before the any water conditioning equipment.

    And if you are looking for more pressure at the shower. You can remove the water saver inside the shower head, that should help too.

    djclkirl
  • djclkirl
    djclkirl Member Posts: 10

    thank you all for the time you’ve taken to respond here.

    Any recommendations on what type of sprinkler system to use, and sizing?

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,590

    Hunter sprinkler systems. They have a great product with a very user friendly timer, heads etc.

    Best to have it sized by the installer.

    djclkirl
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,849

    Do you know the brand and model of the submersible? That would give you info regarding how many gpm you could expect. Then size the sprinkler circuits to what the pump can provide.

    If you pump hard, the water level may drop, which will reduct the amount of water the pump will supply. But it is hard for you to know all this until summer rolls around and water levels drop. If it even does? Local well drillers usually have this information.

    In my area all the homes had to lower their pumps as the water table kept dropping. I replaced my pump and galvanized piping at the same time as it was 30 years old.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    djclkirl
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,865

    Your local health department may also have information on your well (they should, but…) which would include a yield test, depth to static water and depth of well. I'd be rather wary of the yield test figure, as very few drillers actually perform a proper yield test (back when I was drilling wells among other things, my company and one other were the only ones I knew of in western New England which did proper tests on residential wells!) but at least it will be a guideline.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    djclkirl
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,106

    "And if you are looking for more pressure at the shower. You can remove the water saver inside the shower head, that should help too."

    I highly recommend the High Sierra 1.25 GPM shower head. It will get the most out of your existing flow. Best 40 bucks I ever spent.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09VD22H8W

    Larry Weingartendjclkirl
  • djclkirl
    djclkirl Member Posts: 10

    Hello all, Back to this one. 

    Scope of Work:

    I want to relocate my well water pump tank 40 feet to our basement utility room. The room houses an oil furnace, hot water tank, water spin-down filter, water micro-filter, and salt water softener. 

    The Basement is unfinished - and the well water line enters the house around 2 feet above the floor. I had planned to cut the floor to extend the well pipe intake line to the new location. 

    As the basement is unfinished, the Builder I have on-site recommends taking the well water intake pipe up to the basement ceiling and running it along the wood joists to avoid digging the floor.

    Thoughts on this approach?


    I have no plans to finish the basement. And if we were to down the road, we would leave ceiling unfinished…

    Thanks - DJ

  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,149

    Since you have a submersible pump, the incoming well water is under pressure. I see no reason to dig a trench in the floor; the system should work just fine with the pipe along the ceiling.


    Bburd
    djclkirl
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,865

    Where is the pressure switch for the well? There's no problem relocating the pipe coming in — as @bburd said, it's under pressure so it can go pretty much anywhere you like. However, it is important that the pressure switch be at or very close to the pressure tank.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    djclkirl
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,590

    You can do what you like with the piping as explained. You can re-route it on the ceiling or on the wall or floor if desired using proper hangers. I wouldn't cut the floor. There's no need for that.

    The picture you provided last January shows a tank with a lot of rust at the base. Are you planning on changing that soon? When you move it?

    djclkirl
  • djclkirl
    djclkirl Member Posts: 10

    Apologies for a possible dumb answer/question here. The pressure switch is the gray box on front of the pressure tank..?


    Yes there is rust, should I sand to remove rush & paint - or I need to replace the tank?

    Attaching the same picture again.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,893
    edited March 30

    that rust is from condensation.
    time to replace it!


    before this

    djclkirl
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,865

    Yes, the grey box is the pressure switch. The cover lifts off and the contacts and adjustment are inside. WARNING: the contacts are not protected, and if the power is on, they're live!

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    djclkirl
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,517

    I would install a larger tank when you tank needs replacement. Less cycling is better and you will have more drawdown.

    If the house has been there since 76' I would think the tank must have been replaced maybe twice before. It probably has a date on it.

    djclkirl
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,378

    You want to be sure that you do not isolate the pressure control from the pump inlet line by placing a valve between the pump and control.

    Submersibles can produce enough pressure to blow fittings apart if no place for water to go.

    This simple fact also applies to boilers/water heaters that might have a supply stop placed between them and the pressure relief valve……someone will eventually close the valve……

    djclkirl
  • djclkirl
    djclkirl Member Posts: 10

    thank you all - super clear.

    Any specs/model suggestions when replacing the tank?

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,466

    You need to understand completely that to replace a deep well/shallow well pressure tank it takes work that has to be done right the first time "strictly" depending on the initial type of piping installed AND IT SHOULD NEVER BE DONE ON A WEEKEND as you may well need help from a well driller, large plumbing supply company or a plumber.

    Deep well pump wiring has been secured to the drop pipes wth electrical tape which leaches toulene into the water supply and that is not healthy.

    Deep well submersible pumps have turbine vanes that are stacked in the pump housing to aid in increasing pressure to move water to overcome the depth of the well.

    The submersible pump may or may not have an internal check valve installed in the top of the submersible pump to prevent water from passing back into the well which will cause the submersible pump to cycle much more often and the pump motor will fail much sooner.

    The existing deep well submersible may or may not have an internal lightning arrestor or a lightning arrestor wired into the pump wiring.

    Metal well casing makes for a great lightning rod that will blow up deep well submersible pumps if there is a ground lightning strike-been there done that at least 7 times. Jet pumps do not have that issue unless there is a direct lightning strike on thehome or local high voltage wiring feeders.

    You can purchase complete tank and pressure switch kits with freeze/burst relief valves that are assembled and ready to install from a Red Jacket dealer and other brands.

    Do you know where your pump disconnect switch is? Does it have a 2 cartridge fuse box or a pump control box hung on the wall at or near the pressure tank?

    The following is very important-do you know what the deep well submersible pumps voltage is? 110 volts, 220 volts? 220 volt pump wire will have insulated 2 conductors.

    Do you know if the well casing is at least 6 inches above the ground?

    Do you know if the well casing has a single piece flat metal casing cap or a 2 piece well casing cap with a rubber sealing gasket and a hole in the bottom half of the cap for electrical conduit for the wiring?

    Does the deep well pump have a pull rope connected to it? Are there check valves in the poly pipe?; they are normally installed one hundred feet apart based on the well depth.

    A properly installed deep well submersible will have a rubber torque arrestor attached to the polyethylene pipe which stops the submersible turbine pump from twisting when it starts. The submersible deep well installation using blue or black polyethylene pipe should have plastic centralizing discs that are slid on the pipe at a distance of 10 feet apart. The centralizing discs do 2 jobs, the first being to keep the pump string centered in the well to prevent rubbing of the pipe against the welk casing and the second job is to protect to pump wire from rubbing and shorting out the pump.

    If your deep well submersible has a steel drop pipe that is a different animal that uses 20 foot galvanized or black iron pipe joints and pipe nipples.

    1__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Deep well submersible pumps were initially designed to be used in oil fields to pump light sweet crude oil from the oil well into storage tanks that were open and had no pressure restrictions which cause violent start stop cycles which are very hard on the pump motors when used in water well service.The ideal way to have a deep well submersible pump used is to have it piped to a large tank that has a float switch in it like a livestock watering tank which allows the deep well submersible pump to start at its full speed and amperage and then slowly come to a stop when the tank is full or the timer used to control it breaks the circuit which allows the pump motor to slow to a gradual stop. The check valve in the top of the pump will keep drop pipe full of water and the pump motor will not be affected by the weight of the water in the drop pipe. 2__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ If you really want to keep your lawn looking good perhaps you should invest in Zoysia grass plugs to choke out weeds and reduce water use in hot climates. You can aways use a lawn irrigation set up with a rotating set of nozzles that also rides on wheels that follow the hose on the ground and uses a timer. You need to remember that overhead irrigation wastes water no matter what system you use. Zoysia grass has been used for decades to choke out weeds, save labor and save water.

    3

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    s

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,865

    @leonz has some good points up there — but may I start back at the beginning? If you have a submersible pump, and if it's running well, don't mess with it. Just don't. Leave it be. Pulling and replacing them — and I've done quite a few — is a pretty good illustration of "can of worms".

    Replacing the pressure tank, however, is perfectly ordinary plumbing, except for two things: first, the pressure switch should be as close on the piping to the pressure tank as is reasonable, and there is no such thing as too big a pressure tank from the hydraulic and pump standpoint. Physically fitting it into your space, maybe — but hydraulically, no. The bigger the better. The usual comments about precharging the tank air side apply here, just like hot water heat — precharge the air side, with the tank off line and empty, to a bit below the cutin pressure on your pressure switch.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Intplm.