Liner with oil heat?
I have a very old boiler with oil heating and I live in NY. I recently had a chimney company come out and they are saying I need a new liner and repointing. I am not convinced about the liner, and am wondering if it matters whether I do repointing or lining first, as I may need to break up the work into 2-3 years. Pictures attached. What looks the most urgent/concerning?
Comments
-
Really need to look at the whole liner, top to bottom. Good sweeps will have a camera or some other means to do that. Check particularly the joints between lengths of the tile.
And yes, the outside could use pointing — but I've seen a whole lot worse.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
5 -
If it really is only another 2-3 years, repointing it then vs now won't be a lot different. if it were 5-10 years that would be a different story.
1 -
I don’t see anything in those pictures that scream immediately!
Get a few more opinions.
7 -
I don't know if any of the chimney experts here are in your area but their opinion will cost more but it will be correct and possibly their solution will cost less.
2 -
How about some pics of the "very old boiler"? If you plan on upgrading in the near future, you would most likely NEED a liner. The reason being, a new high efficiency oil fired boiler will have a much lower flue gas temperature than the "very old boiler". That coupled with a terra cotta lined exterior chimney is a recipe for condensation. I've seen countless plugged chimney bases less than a year after a new high efficiency oil fired boiler was installed because no liner. The terra cotta deteriorates and gravity does the rest. @Bob Harper can give a much better explanation.
0 -
Boiler could be 30 years old but that isn't that old for that type of boiler. You don't need to replace it until it leaks.
It could leak tomorrow, it could leak 30 years from now. Since it is oil someone should be cleaning it and doing a combustion analysis annually. Usually when they start leaking it starts as a slow leak so you have some time to schedule replacement. It usually doesn't get to the point that you can't use it for a while.
6 -
Ok, thanks! I do have annual boiler maintenance scheduled for the end of the week.
2 -
I'm a homeowner and we have the same boiler as you do, of probably the same age, around 30 years old. Ours is still in good shape and could easily last another 10 years, as could yours. So I agree with @mattmia2 that there's no need to give up on it prematurely.
We also have a brick chimney with terra cotta liner as do you. Ours is a little cleaner than yours, but yours may still be usable without a new liner. As has been said, get a good chimney sweep.
2 -
Besides the boiler what else is going into the chimney? I see another smoke pipe going into the chimney…
1 -
On the roof? That's the plumbing vent.
0 -
no. here
0 -
It is a coal boiler with a stoker. it should probably be disconnected from the vent and you should make sure the water doesn't circulate through it otherwise the oil boiler will be heating it and sending a fair bit of heat up the vent and in to the basement.
5 -
Could someone clarify what is the main reason for installing a liner? Is it because the chimney is bad or flue temps not expected to be hot enough to prevent condensation?
0 -
-
I would start with pointing. Once that mortar starts to go it goes fast.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
1 -
Your coal stoker is an anthraheat mini stoker. You could sell it easily by placing an advert in the coal pail forum.
0 -
1
-
When you disconnect that vent pipe from the Mini Stoker, think about adding a 7" RC Barometric draft control.
It is recommended by the boiler Manufacturer on page 12 and 13 of the Installation Manual.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
I don't think the chimney guy is scamming you. It looks like you need repointing however the chimney is not going to fall down soon its not that bad but needs to be done.
As far as relining we can't see the whole thing with pictures and what I can see looks ok. I would repoint first and save up for a liner unless the chimney guy is saying the liner is unsafe now.
2 -
You have a Weil McLain Gold boiler, which is relatively efficient venting into an unlined, cold, exterior masonry chimney in NY. You might be able to get a properly sized smoothwall 316ss liner down this offset terra cotta but they likely would need to break out the old clay liner to make room for a sufficiently sized ss liner. The chimney must be suitable for the class of service- it is not. Refer to NFPA 211. Aside from the liner, the exterior chimney above the roof appears to have de-bonded between the mortar and brick. The Ordinary Portland Cement-based mortar is too hard for that reclaimed soft brick as noted by the spalling, crumbling and de-bonding at the boundaries. Old used bricks still have original mortar impregnated into the pores of the bed joints thus rendering them less likely to bond with new mortar. The freeze-thaw cyclic damage to the upper chimney repeatedly erodes this boundary causing the brick to actually separate from the mortar.
Meanwhile, the weather has been eroding the mortar externally. Since there is no rain cap, significant frank water has penetrated down the clay tile putting the acidic condensation and soot into solution form where it easily destroys the mortar joint between flue tiles. From there, the water easily pours into the interstitial spaces of the chimney infusing it with soluble salts created by the acids combining with the alkaline mortar. This salt attracts water and is drawn to both the surface where it is visible. We call this chalky powder 'efflorescence'. It's a water magnet. However, there is also similar salt migration to the interior of the chimney interstitium where it condenses at the capillary break formed by the gap between the clay tile and the chimney wythe walls. Where there is bridging caused by mortar backfilled between the wythe walls and the tiles, water and salts will migrate to the interior of the clay flue tiles. As it wicks up the unglazed ends of the clay tiles, it is easily drawn up the 2 foot length of each tile by capillarity. As the water right behind the glazed or vitreous inner face of the flue tiles gets heated during a firing cycle, this trapped water converts to steam expanding 1,600 times. The result is the spalled face you see of the tiles. Now the tiles have lost mass and no longer meet the code for thickness, nor their joint integrity not the chimney proper. The cracked cast crown allows further water penetrating hastening the demise of this chimney. The counter flashing appears to be slightly let into mortar joints but not sealed in. This allows more water in.If you pushed hard against the upper chimney, it would probably fall over. From the comfort of my home, it appears to justify rebuilding from viable material-up.
The chimney connector off the WM boiler does not appear to slope upwards 1/4" per LP. It must have a barometric damper per code unless that boiler mfr expressly forbids it (WM does not). The connector must be the proper gauge thickness (appears to be 26ga. galv. x 7" diameter, which is too thin. Must be 24 ga. You must have a minimum of 3 screws per joint equidistantly spaced. The connector must be supported, which it is not. No pic of the chimney breaching- can you supply? The flue was grossly undersized for both boilers firing simultaneously so glad it is shut down but needs to be disconnected, which can be done when the connector pipe is replaced.
I think you need to consider demolishing that chimney down to where it is viable and rebuilding with a properly sized smoothwall 316ss liner to new 24 ga. galv. connector or better yet 26ga. ss rigid liner as connector with a tee and barometric damper as shown above.
This is a very sick chimney probably well beyond simple pointing and lining. Repointing and relining do not remove those soluble salts, and pointing is not a structural repair.
HTH
2 -
@Bob Harper I appreciate the very thorough analysis, but since I can't afford to rebuild it now, and the proposed liner and repointing work won't solve the problem, I'm inclined to just do nothing for at least another year or two. We do also have another chimney connected to a wood burning stove in the basement, which we have not yet used. We will eventually get that one cleaned, inspected, and at least repointed at the top (it goes up through the center of the house), but we have only owned this house for five years and there have been more pressing issues to address before we could tackle that.
0 -
@Bob Harper does this help at all? Tough to get a better shot with that other wall in the way.
0 -
Punch a hole in the back of the chimney 18" above grade. Connect a few feet of smoothwall 316ss liner from a sidewall power venter, such as a Field Controls SWG interlocked to the burner, connect new stovepipe, put a rain cap on top of the flue, and call it a day until you can do something more permanent.
HTH
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.8K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 56 Biomass
- 425 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 109 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.6K Gas Heating
- 105 Geothermal
- 160 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.6K Oil Heating
- 70 Pipe Deterioration
- 966 Plumbing
- 6.3K Radiant Heating
- 385 Solar
- 15.3K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 44 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements