Question about gas valve placement on the main inside a house, allowed or not?
I was curious if there is any reason why you should NOT have a shutoff valve on the gas line after the meter. This house has an indoor gas meter where the gas company has 2 valves on their side One at the service entrance before the pressure regulator and one just before the meter bar. I can certainly understand why they would do this and its actually a good thing since it allows them to work on their stuff by isolating the low side or the higher side independently or together.
The thing that has me curious is why the plumber "back in the day" ran the 3/4 pipe for the customer without installing a gas valve on the 3/4 main run near the meter. I couldn't even find anything consistent regarding valve locations in any of the hundreds of photos of gas meters on the web.
Is there any reason to not have a valve either at the vertical off the meter or the horizontal right after the 90 at the joist area?
There is a shutoff as expected at every appliance branch but none on the main run other than on the 2 on the Nat Grid side you see in the picture. This is on Staten Island in case its a New York thing that doesn't or didn't allow an extra valve.
Don't go too hard on the plumbing work from the gas company, I guess they don't carry levels on their vans :)
Comments
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Each valve adds more pressure drop. You don't need an isolation valve on the building to keep the water from running back when you remove the meter like you do on a water service. Gas valves don't really corrode and fail the way water valves do.
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having an open panel box is not very safe either
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Hi, I'd feel better putting a full port ball valve rated WOG downstream of the meter, if simply as a safety measure.
Yours, Larry
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A full port valve at the lower arrow would be on the line pressure side and would add little if any restriction to the flow to the meter or your building
I would think the utility should require one there to service their meter. Assuming that all belongs to the gas provider?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
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Why would you need a valve on the main after the meter? If I want to work on the gas line, I shut the valve before the meter. It seems unnecessary.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
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this is typically what you see upstream of a meter, with a lock tab. It is a full port NG rated valve
Oddly enough the G in WOG was non flammable gas
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
yes i believe that both of the arrows i put on the picture belong to the utility. I was just curious why there wouldn't be one after the meter on the "customer" side. It doesn't seem to be any type of standard, sometimes I see one most times I do not. I was curious why that is, if it was just an installers preference at that point or if some places do it and most others do not.
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i never understood the main gas shutoff requiring a tool to shut off, but there is a gas cock on the line just inside the foundation and another after the regulator.
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@Alan (California Radiant) Forbes I think some utilities piss and moan when head of service valves are opened and closed, your area may be different. But I guess like @Mad Dog_2 and @mattmia2 said maybe it about eliminating additional leak points or pressure drops
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With the recent Task 87 gas rules, it's a game changer for even touching gas cocks before and around a gas meter. No more just shutting the first gas cock & changing an appliance or gas branch or riser cock. Mad Dog
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In the recent past, a simple Master Plumber license allowed you to work on everything after the HP regulator. Mad Dog
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Yup its just getting tougher and tougher to do any work these days.
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yup and they both require a tool to shut them off
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Not that matters, but if those old gas cocks are similar to the ones in my area (NJ) they are certainly NOT full port. I would guess more like "half port."
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most of the plumbing and mechanical codes refer you to NFPA 54 for fuel gas practices and component approval. The local AHJ can add additional requirements as @Mad Dog_2 mentioned.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
some gas utilities use a gas cock that can be turned off with a tool, aka Cresent wrench, but cannot be turned back on without a special tool. There is a pin on the backside that needs to depress. I think Michigan requires this type of valve at the meter.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
no worries, like I wrote in the earlier email. Those 2 marked with the blue arrows are the gas companies and they each require a tool to operate so not as nice and easy as the a gas cock that would be able to be shut off quickly if needed without a tool. I am not sure what type that they install whether full port or not.
I was just mainly curious why someone that would plumb the house would not put a shut off on the customer side of the meter that does not require a tool to turn on and off but I gather from some of the feedback that it's really not necessary or required. Each appliance has its own shut off like its supposed towhich I guess is the most important part.
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Unless there is some local rule against it you can have as many valves as you want.
In my area (MA)they like ball valves on gas and the older plug style valve can't be used on any new work.
If they are existing and are in good shape they can remain like when changing a furnace or a water heater
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Thanks @EBEBRATT-Ed
Appreciate the info as always
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Our municipality still requires a plug type tapered valve on a gas line, and that is provided by the Utility before their meter.
The reason gas valves require a tool to operate is to keep an untrained person or vandal from extinguishing pilot lights or gas burners and then turning the gas back on permitting the flow of unlit gas into the premise. Pilot and gas safety valves are relatively new, and many appliances still operate without them. A momentary interruption in gas by an miscreet can have disastrous results.
There would be no advantage to having a second gas valve inside the premise, though I know of no prohibition against a fitter installing or specifying one. Good practice frowns on double-valving anything, for the aforementioned reasons: potential leak and failure points, flow restriction, confusion and cost…
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so can not being able to turn the gas off in an emergency because you don't have a wrench.
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Task 87 allows/encourages a shut off cock just after the outlet of the gas meter for the "qualified" person to shut off the system as they prohibit anyone, but the gas utility, from shutting any cock upstream through the meter and to the regulator.
All well and good to install said gas cock on a brand new installation which is under D.O.B. gas work permit & inspection. Adding one in later on, will require a new permit & gas pressure test/inspection as per National Grid trainers. Mad Dog
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Sounds pretty restrictive where you are.
Anyone should be able to shut down the gas in an emergency. Homeowner, building owner firefighter etc. Seem to me it would cause the utility a TON of liability if the building is burning and you cant shut the gas off.
In MA a licensed gasfitter or plumber is allowed to make emergency repairs or shut down the gas as long as the inspector is notified ASAP like the next business day and gets a permit.
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We were "told" by National Grid that this was Federal Law pushed by the D.O.T. and that the rules were the same in all 50. Hmmm?? Mad Dog
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just seems like an awfully heavy hand to have on the homeowner for work inside their own property. I understand there have been incidents but it’s unusual to put such a heavy burden on an entire population because of a small number of problems. Small number only being relative to the number of jobs performed in the field annually, not trying to diminish loss of life or property of course.
Just makes it seem like even adding a barbecue or gas pit requires an intervention and approvals by different agencies. Lowes and HD and the big box stores should pull all of these items from the shelves and put them in the back for contractors purchase only it seems.
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I don't see how dot would have jurisdiction over fixed, installed gas infrastructure. There is federal jurisdiction to some extent because the state systems are interconnected but it isn't under dot.
NYC needs the level of regulation it has because of the number of landlords that don't care if their tenants blow up and it takes a couple other large buildings with it, you don't see that level of regulation other places unless they have similar conditions. Some states don't let homeowners touch gas. things like this shouldn't happen. I heard this 9 miles away inside my house.
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yeah I remember reading about that one @mattmia2 what a real sad story. There were many other gas explosions over the years, most non-intentional just like that one. I remember one here in the boroughs of NY either Brooklyn or Queens where the person actually had the leaking propane tanks inside the house at the time and there was an explosion.
Terrible when something like this happens
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