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Heating recommendation for Jackson, WY

Hello everyone, I'm going to be building a house soon and need help or advice with designing it. We are thinking to have floor heat hydronic system maybe with some supplemental radiators and with HRV for stale air ventilation. My question is how well that kind of system works in cold climates like ours and if only floor heat would do? With the floor heat only is there a good way to control the heat not to have temp spikes in fall and spring when the days get hot and nights cold. Also if floor heat will be sufficient enough or not for some of the colder days that we get -35F. It would be a small 2 story house with 1950 sq ft living space and 550 sq ft garage. As per my calculations it needs 30k btus for heating and then some for hot water. The walls will be insulated with closed cell foam for best results and floor will be slab on grade with 5/8 plywood and engineered wood floors.

If anyone has good working system in colder climates it would be nice to know the route you took to achieve it!

I've worked as an HVAC installer and with my colleague installed lots of heating systems in this area 5 years ago but all of those systems had supplemental furnace air supply and floor heat. So I have a bit of experience but not in designing and engineering.

Thanks in advance!

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,620

    Theoretically you should be able to handle the load with radiant floors — but that pretty well assumes that all of the floor area is available. Which it won't be. Cabinets, furniture, rugs…

    Even so, the basic premise is quite sound.

    However.

    It is sound only if you insulate the dickens out of that slab. I'd want at least six inches if not more of insulating foam underneath it, and a good foot of foam on all perimeters..

    Also, remember that floor radiant heat responds very slowly. Therefore I would also have a higher temperature loop or loops with panel radiators which can be used to bring space temperatures up when the response is needed. Use the floor to maintain base temperature — perhaps 65 or so.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    GameOverMan
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 993

    Be aware that you could get significant solar heat gain. Best to design with that in mind i.e. window placement and area (total sq.ft) and house orientation, shading etc. This gain would affect the inside temps esp. during shoulder seasons (spring and fall). If your only heat is the radiant floor, that can only be moderated (up or down) very slowly. Solar gain happens fairly quickly. Kudos for including HRV/ERV.

    GameOverMan
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,573

    and consider who will be contracted to build the home, install radiant systems etc. It can challenging finding anyone with specialty knowledge required.

    GameOverMan
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,723

    as well as:

    Annual maintenance

    Emergency service when something doesn’t work

    Away monitoring

    PC7060
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,420
    edited February 23

    As you are intent on building a slab on grade home with a garage is the garage to be attached to the home?? Perhaps you should re-examine having a basement for your home as it will be new construction.

    Are you not worried about off gassing from the closed cell foam insulation especially with a tighter home design?

    You should consider installing an overhead steam heating system for your new home as it is a simple proven design that will provide abundant heat.

    Using Sub Bituminous coal for heating is very economical per ton as it is less than $10.00 a ton the last time I checked and it creates a much smaller amount of coal ash to deal with.

    GameOverMan
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 942

    I agree with hydronic radiant heat as your primary heat source.

    I also agree with insulating under the slab and the inner edge of the footings with at least two inch thick foam. Try to keep the radiant tubing above the center of the slab, not the bottom. Your heat loss numbers look great for a 2500 square two story structure with a design temperature of -35F. I am guessing you are using at least 2x6 walls filled with insulation and high end windows. You may need an additional source of heat if there are a lot of windows. You could add radiant ceilings as well or add a few panel radiators as suggested above.

    What will be your fuel source? How reliable is your electric power in your area? With those potential bitter cold temps you might want to consider a back up generator and/or a back up heat source.

    On another note, your building a house in my favorite area of the United States. Say hello to Hoback (famous moose) and the rest of all that wildlife in your area.

    GameOverMan
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,472

    There are, or were some excellent radiant contractors and wholesalers in the Jackson area. I've been doing trainings up there for 17 years now.

    I would have a local wholesaler, or rep do a design for you. Something like LoopCAD to get a tubing layout, pump sizing, boiler piping, etc.

    I would tube every residential job 6" on center now. A little more tubing $$, but it allows you to heat with the lowest possible temperature, give you the fastest ramp up, most consistent floor surface temperature.

    Also allows for a heat pump installation in the future.

    I can call around on Monday see how many of those hydronic guys are still in the area, or who is the local go to experts, PM me if that could help you.

    My next ground up build would be a mix of radiant floors and panel radiators. Really no need for radiant floors in bedrooms, most of it is covered any ways. I'd use panel rads with TRVs in bedrooms. Quick easy control and setback options. A super simple non electric temperature control.

    With some attention to design you could run radiant floors and panel rads on a single, low temperature system.

    I'd guess a 50- 80-,000 btu/ hr boiler would cover your entire project.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ScottSecorPC7060GameOverMan
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,740

    I always did 6" O.C. because I didn't want ANY chance of a cold spot. Mad Dog

    PC7060
  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    1 car garage is attached to the house, there will be just the crawl space. I will have to think about off gassing and insulating the slab. The thing is that the county requires a large R rating - 60 if I'm not mistaken. I know the off gassing is an issue. I will have the house venting whole winter when interior works are happening.

    I'm not sure what steam system is and what are advantages. I only have experience with water based. I've talked to some people in the area and nobody mentioned steam to me.

  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    Yes good insulation and good quality windows.

    Interesting, I have to do some research on radiant ceilings. I was considering radiators near the entrance to the house, in the living room and one radiator next to the staircase. However not sure about going that route and having the boiler ramp up to higher temps - that what people tell me. Although on the other hand it will be supplying the hot water anyways. Boiler would probably be a gas on and the electrical company is fairly reliable. We haven't had any issues where we live right now.

    Thank you! Yes I feel very fortunate to be able to live here and to be able to afford a small house which is a whole different story!

  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    Thank you sir! That's what I need is at least a knowledgeable person to design the system or at least to recommend the route. As I understand everyone want to work and charge me for the whole system install. I'm building the house basically myself with help of my ex colleges on a budget and would prefer to have to do most of the work myself.

    It's an interesting point regarding the floor in the rooms. My wife will probably want the heat anyways but it makes sense to me!

    Regarding the boiler capacity I'm thinking to have a water heater heat up from the loop off the boiler. What to you think of that? It would be nice to have the boiler stay lower temp to heat the house. And with heating the water tank I would need something like a 110k btu boiler? or more? I was thinking to go with Lochinvar.

    I'm also debating if I should add parallel electric boiler for backup if the gas one breaks. Something small just to try to keep up - like 35k btu one? Is that a common practice or just my imagination?

    Also if I go with mostly radiant floor heat route. How good of a controls do they have nowadays? Can a smart thermostat or controller keep the sunny rooms from overheating in the spring?

    Thanks everyone for your input. Helps tremendously!

  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    Thank you! yes I'm definitely concerned about that overheating issue. Mostly garage is on that sunny side and one bedroom, Which I figured by the end of the day in will cool down from the sun heat.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,472

    Radiant ceilings and or walls is a nice clean, quiet, unobtrusive option. Typically run 110 supply or lower.

    I have seen radiant walls with the tube around the bottom 3’ of the wall with a wood wainscot over the tube. No need to worry about picture hangers getting to the tube, with tube down low🫣

    If it is a super insulated low heat load, I would not go with a radiant slab, it will rarely feel warm.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,420
    edited February 24

    Speaking as a homeowner,

    The off gassing of oriented strand board wood byproduct sheeting, plywood and glue laminated lumber products is a well known issue and a cause for concern because of their ease in combustion.

    A top fed steam system uses dry steam to heat the entire home at very low pressure, the garage could be heated with a dry steam fed heat exchanger fan from one wall of the garage.

    A top fed gravity hot water radiator heating system is piped the same way with a single riser connected to the radiators in the same manner feeding the top floor radiators and then the first floor radiators from the bottom tapping's of the second floor radiators. The cool water returns drain to a common cool water return header pipe connected to the boiler sump.

    A gravity fed overhead heating system requires an open to air expansion tank in the attic that can drain into a laundry sink or floor drain. The open to air expansion tank is heated by either a radiator in the attic or piping it using a U connection to the base of the expansion tank allowing the hot water coming from the single riser to rise into the tank more quickly as it flows.

    In the case of an overhead steam system, the boiler would feed the dry steam to the attic with one riser ending with an elbow feeding a header pipe the length of the attic that would have take offs that feed dry steam to the radiators on the second floor using tees or crosses with dry steam piping reaching the width of the attic and then dropping to the second floor radiators which are in turn connected to the radiators on the first floor and the garage.

    The header pipe in the attic would be covered with a thick blanket of batt insulation to reduce heat loss to a minimum

    Using 6 inch+ thick batt insulation, rock wool or blown in cellulose for the home would be healthier.

    Studies have found that new houses can be made too tight and as a result they do not have adequate air exchange rates.

    I would want every piece of stick lumber or sheet to be coated with at least three coats of fire resistant latex paint before a nail or screw is driven into it.

    The above are thoughts from a homeowner who has lived through a house fire.

  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    Thanks for your input. I've never thought of that radiant wont feel warm if the house is well insulated. That makes sense I think. Would you do rooms with this kind of ceiling or wall heat and the bathrooms and hallway and living room with floor?

  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    Thanks for you input! Really helpful!

    Regarding the off gassing, honestly don't have a plan.

    Regarding the steam system, I don't have experience with it at all and the plan is to do the work myself.

    We are planning to have HRV system to have proper air exchange in the house.

    Our code requires us to have fire proof plywood and we are going to have metal siding so I hope that would help with fire hazard.

  • GameOverMan
    GameOverMan Member Posts: 8

    What do you guys think about Warmboard? It looks like they can design everything for your house and they have prebuild systems that they ship.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,472

    WB is a structural panel, so it takes some cost out of the framing floor sheathing. It is $$ and very heavy to work with, shipping can be costly. Let the framers know if you go that direction. They tend to get tweaked if it shows up without notice.

    It does a nice job of spreading the temperature across the floor with the heavy gauge aluminum top layer. Most any floor covering can go over it, it usually runs low temperature unless you add carpet and pad over it.

    Certainly worth pricing out as an option.

    The chances of finding some one in that area that could design and install a residential steam system properly would be very rare, IMO. Possibly find some steam guys in Idaho Falls as the closest "big" city. Probably some commercial shops in I.F. that maintain the Arco Nuke site may have steam experience.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,573

    "They tend to get tweaked if it shows up without notice."

    Yes, similar to when a pallet of 1-1/4" Advantech shows up

  • Vince_Energy_1
    Vince_Energy_1 Member Posts: 1

    Hello,

    I see you got some advice from Hot Rod! He is an expert when it comes to hydronic heating. I had the pleasure of attending a training with him years ago in MT. I now live and work in Jackson doing all types of mechanical, electrical, and plumbing installs. We specialize in design and installation of conventional and geothermal based heating systems. Your welcome to email me directly to talk about options for your project. I am also happy to have you come to my office if you would like to go over plans and options. vlovejoy@energy-1.net

    GameOverManhot_rod
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,420
    edited February 25

    An overhead/top fed gravity hot water system will require more plumbing but in either case what you want and need is thermal mass. Thermal mass is money in the heat bank. In an overhead or bottom fed gravity hot water system the pipe, radiators and water in the system are the thermal mass that will radiate the heat back into the living space at 170 degrees+-.

    Single pipe steam systems work well and have less piping as well.

    GameOverMan