Room seems to be stuck in a narrow range of 66 and short cycle.
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Setback night temp set to 60F.
Wake up. Toggle Chronotherm Thermostat to Red, set to 66F
Boiler runs for 45 mins. until room reaches 66F then turns off
Radiators are fully hot, so room then overshoots to 69F
So far, so good.
Room cool down to 65-66 and boiler runs for 8-10 mins.
Room is at 66.
Room seems to be stuck in a narrow range of 66 and short cycle.
Rads aren't getting full, so there is no overshoot like the first run.
Wouldn't it be better if it ran longer and less frequently?
Comments
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How frequently does that cycle repeat? If it's only two or three times an hour, it's a bit too often — but the real bottom line is this: the job of the thermostat is to hold the space at or very close to what it's set at.
It's doing that.
I wouldn't complain.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Agreed, it doing the job.
I just wish it would overshoot like on the initial run, so it runs less often.
I'll track how often it cycles.
It annoying to count b/c some cycles are the 4 minute hot water coil, which aren't for heating. Related question, is the tankless coil cycle to heat water based on a temperature or timer. When I timed that a few times, it was exactly 4 mins every time.
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Hot water coil needs the boiler to maintain a minimum temperature. the fact that the time it takes to reach that temperature is always 4 minutes just proves the point that it taks one BTU to change the temperature of one pound of water one degree. Every time the boiler drops to the cut in temperature on the water heater limit control it takes the same amount of time to do the same job. with the same temperatures and the same amount of water.
It's temperature … Not Time!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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what’s the water temperature?
Why 66*?
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why do you want it to run longer and less frequently?
Personally I would find a 3 degree overshoot or like a 6 degree swing unappealing.
When I timed that a few times, it was exactly 4 mins every time.
This makes sense because each time it is heating water from x degrees to y degrees in a very controlled environment.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Kind of hard to trick a thermostat into doing what it's not supposed to do. Most of us spend a good deal of time and effort on keeping the temperature in a space in as narrow a range around the set temperature as possible!
If the thermostat does have an anticipator — older ones do — try what @Mark N suggested: disable it completely or set it for as long a run as possible. If, like many newer thermostats, it has a cycles per hour setting, try setting it for as few cycles per hour as it will accept — typically one.
But I would ask: why would you want a huge overshoot? What is the reasoning behind that?
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
My system is set-up to run 2cph and usually the Ecosteam forces it too even when the Honeywell doesn't want to and would cause it to run far less.
This keeps overshooting to a minimum. Run times are often as short as 3 minutes.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I just assumed that running once for longer would be more efficient than several mini-cycles (66→70→66 vs 66-67 & 66-67 & 66-67)
Here are the last 3 boiler cycles:
2:46 on 67F (26F outside)
2:54 off 67F
Total 8 mins21 mins. later
3:15 on 67F
3:29 off 67F
Total 14 mins57 mins. later
4:26 on 67F
4:34 off 67F
Total 8 mins23 mins. later
4:57 on 67F
5:06 off 67F
Total 9 mins0 -
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Are all the rads getting some steam every cycle? An 8 minute on time is kind of short for steam.
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Is there a particular radiator in the same room as thermostat that tends to drive the changes the thermostat sees? Depending how many Radiators in your house, One option is to balance the heat loss coming from that radiator. Reduce the heat output from the radiator(s) in the thermostat room. It could be as simple as as a "lid" on the radiator to reduce convection.
https://youtu.be/XXTVJ_hh3JI?feature=shared
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Hay Coach! are you talking about your steam boiler when you said "Wouldn't it be better if it ran longer and less frequently"? The answer is probably yes but maybe not. This is something you can test using the heat anticipator on your old Honeywell Chronotherm. Move the heat anticipator all the way to the longer setting and see if you use less fuel. If you do use less fuel and you can live with the temperature swings of 3° to 7° without the wife complaining, then you will know your answer. If you don't save on fuel, then put the heat anticipator back to the original setting and be more comfortable.
Let us know the results of your research
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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66-70 gives you more heat loss than 66-67.
No, that's not more efficient and it's far less comfortable.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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@CoachBoilermaker Said: Thermostat is in the living room. That's where I want the heat, actually. Radiator in the living room gets 50% full during these 8 min. cycles. I do not want to throttle the LR radiator, as that is the main living space
This is the exact thinking that prevents the average person from getting a heating system balanced. Think of it this way. The living room is the place that you want the heat to be just right, so that is where the thermostat is located.
What if the thermostat was located in the coldest room? What would happen to the living room then? You say it would get too hot? Then throttle down the radiator (slower vent on steam or valve down the radiator on a water system) until you get it just right… and then you will have a balanced system. After you have a balanced system, you can put the thermostat back in the living room. You will still have a balanced system with a thermostat in the living room. So… Why not save the step where you move the thermostat, and just throttle down the radiator without moving the thermostat? The living room will still get the same temperature while the other rooms will get more heat and wont be so cold.
You want the fuel bill to drop? Then use a lower thermostat setting. The higher the temperature difference between the inside temperature the more fuel you will use. You need to pay for comfort. Either in a more expensive heating system, insulation, better windows and the like, …or… in a higher fuel usage. You want lower fuel cost…. use less fuel by getting a more expensive heating system, insulation, better windows and the like, …or… turn the thermostat down.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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But the 66-70 could be one boiler cycle vs. multiple shorter cycles
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I hear you, but the LR is the only room we use when home. At night, I setback to 60F when sleeping. So, the system is balanced. Assume the LR is the only room in the house. Only question I have is what's more efficient: one long boiler run from 66-70 or several short runs from 66-67?
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One long run with a huge swing will be slightly more efficient that several short runs — if the final temperature in both cases is the same. However, the amount of fuel used is related to the heat loss of the structure, which is dependent on temperature. Thus if a long run results in a large overshoot of the target temperature, while the shorter runs will hold at the target, the shorter runs will use less fuel. It's mostly about average temperature, and run length is a minor factor.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
This is a slide that I used in my heating systems classes. It is a simple and quick explanation of how a heat loss is calculated. In the example I go over the three ways that heat can transfer or travel from one space to another space. Convection, Conduction and Radiation, and how different building materials have a resistance to that heat moving from one side to the other side.
That resistance is called the R-value, like 3-1/2" of fiberglass insulation has an R value of 11. To do a heat loss you need to convert the R value of a building component into a U value. The way to get a U value is to divide the number 1 by the R value. So the example building component block in the slide has an R value of 4 so the U value would be ¼, which equals 0.25 .
With that U value of the building component we then take the total Square footage of that building component and multiply it by the U Valve and that is how many BTUs of heat will transfer from one side of that wall to the other side of that wall when the difference is 1°F. With that number you then multiply that total by the temperature difference between the inside temperature and the outside temperature and you will get the total BTU heat loss for that building component. Do the same calculation for all the building components: doors, walls , windows, ceilings, floors, etc. that are exposed to the outdoors and you will have a total heat loss calculation for the building.
The important takeaway from this is the part that states: to "multiply the total by the temperature difference between inside and outside". Multiply the difference in temperature to get your total
So when your indoor temperature goes to 70° your heat loss is greater than the desired 66° temperature by 4°. That means that you are losing heat from inside your home to the outside cold by 8% more when the outside temperature is 20° So for those 15 minutes or so you are wasting fuel that you could be saving if the burner was off 10 minutes sooner at say 62° and the overshoot temperature got to 66°, then started to drop down to 65° before the oil burner started again.
Only a learning thermostat can do that for you, but that will be an interesting learning curve because the algorithm in those thermostats take up to 4 days to learn that, and by then the outdoor climate may have changed from bitter cold to normal or even mild temperatures and the learning needs to start all over again.
As I said earlier, this is an experiment that you need to conduct at your home and see if the fuel is higher or lower based on the settings you choose to get the job done. You can put an hour meter on the motor wire on that burner to see how many hours the burner operates. That hour meter times the firing rate of the nozzle will give you the gallons used (or close enough for comparison)
Let us know your results
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I can think of two ways that one long run would result in SLIGHTLY more efficiency. But I doubt you could even notice it in dollars.
- Since the boiler is off longer, it will cool down and when it starts back up the cold boiler will take more heat from the combustion gasses passing through it, due to greater temperature differential. That is an increase in the efficiency calculation of the fuel, but what does it get you?
- With one long run, you don't have to spend that time firing to get the water from whatever temperature it is to "steam production"—you will be in the steam production mode longer. Of course that is offset because (see above) since the boiler is cooler it is going to take longer to heat up the water to boiling.
Neither of these potential (potential!) increases in efficiency are going to be noticeable to your wallet, or the boiler's life expectancy IMO
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Thanks for the input.
Looks like a few 8 min cycles every 20-30 mins seems normal
It doesn't sound like anything is malfunctioning, so I will leave it alone.
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