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I Want to ADD a 4-wire GVD Vent Damper to Thermopile-powered DHW Hot Water Heater

Martial_7erran
Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
edited January 30 in Domestic Hot Water

I want to add a 4-inch 4-wire GVD Vent Damper to a thermopile/pilot-powered Domestic Hot Water Heater (Honeywell Gas Valve WV8840B1158). I want to add a 4-inch GVD Vent Damper to the 4-inch flue on top of this appliance. I want to add the damper here for the same reasons there are 6-inch Vent Dampers on the two adjacent natural gas Utica Boilers (to prevent heat loss, and prevent cold air infiltration). I have found no products, plans nor instructables for this addition of a 4-inch 4-wire GVD Vent Damper to a pilot-powered Domestic Hot Water Heater. I imagine that there is a millivolt signal generated by a thermopile (at the pilot flame) within the DHW that (under control of a thermostat) powers the gas valve (and make it blink). I want to find the internal thermostatic signal carrying the "temperature" signal to the Honeywell valve and interrupt (through the "End Switch" of the added 4-wire GVD Vent Damper) to delay burner flame-on. OR interrupt flame-on by passing the millivolt signal at the Thermal Cutoff Switch through the "End Switch" of the added 4-wire GVD Vent Damper, to delay burner flame-on. Thus, the DWH gas valve will only open while the 4-inch DWH GVD Vent Damper is in the OPEN position. The 4-inch DWH GVD Vent Damper will be externally controlled (opened and closed) using a 24VAC supply voltage signal derived from the activation of either of the two Thermostats controlling the two independent adjacent Utica gas Boilers. Additionally, a single 6-inch Damper will be added to the House and open to permit Fresh Air to enter the Boiler/DHW room (only) while any of the gas burning appliances (2 Utica Boilers, one or two DWH) are firing. (I expect that several 24VAC DTDP (or Double-Throw, 4-Pole) relays will be employed in this inter-appliance control circuit). Therefore, with these upgrades, the DHW tank will not fire while either of the two Utica Boilers are fired (and only one Utica Boiler will fire at a time), and DHW will only fire while the Fresh Air Damper is open.

I plan to install a 4 inch 4-wire GVD Vent Damper like this one:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Field-Controls-GVD-4PL-4-Automatic-GVD-Vent-Damper-11701000-p

And use the "End Switch" (aka "safety switch") in the GVD Vent Damper to interrupt the internal millivolt/thermostat signal into the Honeywell gas valve, and thus delay the opening of the DHW gas valve. [Pilot flame and thermopile power-supply to PCB within the DHW must not be affected.].

I am very familiar with the operation of millivolt gas valves in general (as employed on gas furnaces and other gas heaters).

But, as the internal millivolt wires inside the DHW heater are not visible/accessible from the outside, I do not want to try to avoid opening up and tamper with the gas valve assembly or its housing. I am try to get information/advice/diagrams on how to find the internal thermostatic switch or the lower TCO (Thermal cutoff switch) so that I can intercept it and interrupt the millivolt line going into the DHW millivolt gas valve, so that I can add two control wires external to the DHW to connect through a switch (End Switch of the 4-inch 4-wire GVD Vent Damper). I imagine that the internal thermal sensor within the DHW is near the top half of the tank? (Not currently visible). (Is there one or two thermal sensors?) The TCO switch wire is visible at the bottom. [I suspect that the voltage through the TCO is the main power from the thermopile and switching that off will disable the pilot light and PCB board. (so, will not work for my application)] Which would be best location to cut into the various wires at the Honeywell gas valve (for adding the End Switch of the 4-inch 4-wire GVD Vent Damper) in series with that wire? I do not want to be switching/interrupting the main thermopile power to the hold-open circuit on the gas valve for the pilot flame. (I do not know whether cutting/switching-off the TCO wire will shut off the pilot flame.) (I could experiment to figure this out, but would rather ask here first).

I believe these videos are relevant to my task:(Find and replace the Thermal Cut OFF switch TCO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlvCMzHX0KQ
"Troubleshoot Water Heater AND Honeywell Gas Valve | Step-by-Step"
https://youtu.be/cAo4I2eoJ9Q?t=896
(THREE WIRES TO A "TEMPERATURE SENSOR" ARE ACCESSIBLE UNDER FRONT COVER OF THE HONEYWELL VALVE HOUSING. WHY IS THERE THREE WIRES? TWO THERMOSTATS? WHICH OF THESE THREE WIRES WOULD I WANT TO CUT INTO TO ADD IN THE END SWITCH IN SERIES?).

If I can use the TCO wires for this modification (not affecting the pilot light), How can I buy a connector set designed to just plug-in my added wires at the existing red/white wires PLUG on the face of valve housing.

FYI. I DO have the technical competence and wire-joining skill to make these circuit modifications. I am a BSEE and I frequently fix appliances, gas furnaces, and replace AC outlets. The aquastat on one of Utica Boilers broke (the solder on the PCB line to the AC relay had cracked) and I diagnosed this and I soldered in a bypass wire, (saved over $300 replacement cost at the time).

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Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,599

    You don't want to open up that gas valve or try to use that TCO setup for anything other than a TCO. The flue on a water heater is much smaller than that of a boiler, so the loss isn't nearly as much. I might have done this at my house if it were safe to do so.

    Millivolt-powered dampers do exist on some water heaters, and they don't need external power. But they need more millivolt power than just the gas valve, so as of now, they are not available as retrofits.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095
    edited January 30

    Hello Martial_7erran,

    Well, I hope this is just to continue your education and you don't expect a return on investment with fuel savings.

    Anyway familiarize yourself with DS1820, DS18B20 and LM34, LM35 temperature sensors, there probably are others too. Did you kind of ignore the 28 pin microcontroller on the PC board ?

    Since moneywell engineered a way to way over complicate an Anvil and make it less reliable, I would hope the temperature sensing device and the valve solenoids are at least supervised.

    The Red and White wires, probably are from the Power Pile, they look like they are typical Fast-on connectors with a custom plastic hood. www.digikey.com

    I think you will find the temperature sensor is in a well behind the gas valve just like the old hot water tanks were.

    The 9 volt battery for the solenoid valve test was kind of scary. Looks like the electrolytic capacitors are only 6.3 VDC.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,558

    Rip it out and install a power vent water heater. Or a gas fired tankless. Or electric. Or a heat pump. How are the boilers set up? Lead, lag? Independent? How about an indirect?

    Not to mention, a vent damper might need to be approved by the manufacturer and local, state, national codes.

    You seem very excited to do this project, but I wouldn't recommend it. Anything CAN be done. That doesn't mean it should.

    IronmanEdTheHeaterManethicalpaulLyle {pheloa} Carter
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    Steamhead,

    I won't open the gas part of the Honeywell valve, at most only the cover, but trying to avoid even that. I am trying to find a wire external to the Honeywell that I can cut/switch to prevent burner firing while not interfering with the pilot/thermopile. I am not intending to POWER the damper off the thermopile's millivolts. I noted that the 4-inch Damper will be externally powered and externally controlled (using 24VAC power) e.g., from the Boilers thermostats. I only want to add a switch (e.g., End Switch on the Damper or a relay) to DELAY the firing of the burner in the DHW. I am not going to be tapping any power away from the DHW thermopile or the gas valve. I need to find a wire/way to stop/delay the firing of the DHW burner while I also avoid interfering with the pilot/thermopile. Actually, one of the purpose for this modification is to reduce the PEAK DEMAND for combustion AIR for the five gas appliances in a basement (2 Utica gas boilers, up to two gas DHW (currently one), and one gas clothes dryer). The idea is to only allow one (or at most two) of these gas burning appliances to burn gas (AIR demand) at same time. (and add an 8 inch fresh air supply (also closed/opened using a powered damper in synch with the gas appliances).

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,599

    I stand by my statement.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    Hi 109A_5

    Thank you for your insights.

    Quote: "Anyway familiarize yourself with DS1820, DS18B20 and LM34, LM35 temperature sensors, there probably are others too." These are thermal sensors optimized for "Arduino". I do not need to add a thermal sensor, nor an arduino for anything in this case. If I can find a wire outside the Honeywell valve box that I can cut/switch to delay the firing of the burner in the DHW, the DHW damper will be controlled by 24VAC signal derived from the other gas appliances having a higher priority.

    Quote: "Did you kind of ignore the 28 pin microcontroller on the PC board?" I do not want to modify the PCB board or its operation. I will ignore the 28 pin microcontroller on the PC board if possible. Treating the Board as a Black Box, I just want to find a wire outside the honeywell valve box that I can cut/switch to delay the firing of the burner in the DHW.

    Quote: "I would hope the temperature sensing device and the valve solenoids are at least supervised." I am not sure what "supervised" means here. I am worried that the 3-wires from the thermal sensor are not set up such that I can just CUT/switch-off any of them and get the result that I want (delay the onset of fire on the DHW burner). For example, if that "28 pin microcontroller" actively verifies a minimum/data signal from the thermal sensor, and switching off any (of 3) wires triggers a FAULT condition that is not automatically reset unattended, then I can't do this switching as simply as I wanted to.

    Quote: "The Red and White wires, probably are from the Power Pile" I agree that the Red/White wires seem to be the main milivolts power supply from the thermopile, and thus not usable for my external-control purpose.

    I need to find a wire/way to stop/delay the firing of the DHW burner while I also avoid interfering with the pilot/thermopile. Actually, one of the purpose for this modification is to reduce the PEAK DEMAND for combustion AIR for the five gas appliances in a basement (2 Utica gas boilers, up to two gas DHW (currently one), and one gas clothes dryer). The idea is to only allow one (or at most two) of these gas burning appliances to burn gas (AIR demand) at same time. (and add an 8 inch fresh air supply (also closed/opened using a powered damper in synch with the gas appliances).

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    HVACNUT,

    I previously wrote to SupplyHouse asking for an application note explaining how to hack the DWH to add the 24VAC powered damper:

    January 8, 2025 at 11:41 PM PST [I] wrote:

    We have a 40 gallon hot Natural Gas Water Heater with a pilot-flame-powered (millivolt) gas valve (the kind that blinks when the pilot light is generating enough power to open the gas valve upon thermostatic demand. I realized that a lot of heat is escaping up the chimney from the core while the DHW heater is sitting idle. Our Utica Gas Boilers have automatic Normally Closed Shut-off Dampers like this (but 6 inch) that activate to open the chimney Damper before gas ignition and close the chimney Damper after the heating cycle is completed. I would like to know if there is a way to install this type (4 inch) Normally Closed Shut-off Damper (chimney valve) to the millivolt-activated Domestic Hot Water Heater. Perhaps there is a signal or contact inside the DHW unit that can be received and amplified by a relay to switch the 24AC required to activate this 4" Normally Closed Shut-off Damper with Motor (24V)? That would save a lot of energy.

    Type of Support: Heating

    Name: Martial

    They responded:

    productsupport@supplyhouse.com <productsupport@supplyhouse.com>

    Martial,     While this is possible and I have seen customers do it, we do not have any field technicians or plumbers on staff that can advise on exactly how. You would need to reach out to a local installer to ask about the specifics. 
    Kind regards, 

    [So, "I have seen customers do it" at least implies that it CAN be done. I have a good reasons to do it. To reduce risk of CarbonMonoxide, prevent backflow of flame, and attendant fire risk.

    Actually, one of the purpose for this modification is to reduce the PEAK DEMAND for combustion AIR for the five gas appliances in a basement (2 Utica gas boilers, up to two gas DHW (currently one), and one gas clothes dryer). The idea is to only allow one (or at most two) of these gas burning appliances to burn gas (AIR demand) at same time (and add an 8 inch fresh air supply (also closed/opened using a powered damper in synch with the gas appliances).]

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    " I am trying to find a wire external to the Honeywell that I can cut/switch to prevent burner firing while not interfering with the pilot/thermopile. "

    There is no wire, it does not exist as you are trying to envision it. The wires to the temperature sensor(s) simply go behind the gas valve into a well to monitor the water temperature. Besides the Temperature sensors probably send data the the microcontroller, if you sever that connection it will probably make a error and lock out the burner.

    Time sharing combustion air is a flawed plan IMO. On or near design day temperatures when both boilers may be running then when you want to take a shower and dry your closes there will be a significant lack of combustion air.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    It would not surprise me if there is two DS1820 (or the like) in the well for redundancy or supervision, or two thermistors. The DS1820 is a 1-wire device so you can have many on a single network. I highly doubt it is a TCO (Thermal cutoff switch) as you seem desperate for it to be, if it was how do you explain the potentiometer used to adjust the water temperature ??? It could be a thermistor and a thermal fuse.

    And I think if you do your due diligence, 1-wire networks, LM34, LM35 and thermistors existed way before Arduino.

    You missed my point with the 28 pin microcontroller, there is a reason they used that I.C. Not much I/O going on so why 28 pins ? They probably needed some advanced feature that other microcontollers with less pin count don't have. 1-wire interface maybe, 3 ADCs maybe.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,131

    @Martial_7erran

    Attempting to do what you want is not advisable.

    You will violate any warranty on the water heater.

    If something happens you homeowners insurance will be looking for a reason to not cover any damage or loss.

    You would be putting yourself and your family at risk.

    The cost savings in fuel it not worth the risk.

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,558

    I wonder why manufactures don't offer an option for a damper on an atmospheric gas fired water heater. I mean they give you the little hole in the damper for standing pilot, right? Just don't plug the hole. Easy peasy. And as you've stated, it will "reduce the risk of CO."

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,532

    What a coil. It seems to me, @Martial_7erran , that you need to step back — way back — and analyse what you are trying to do a little more clearly.

    As I understand it, your basic and fundamental objective appears to be to ensure that, first, only a select group of gas fired appliances is running at any given time, to minimize combustion air demand in your space and, second, to reduce the heat loss from the open flue for this particular appliance.

    Is this correct?

    The approach to the second part there is almost trivial, but you seem to have become fixated on modifying the gas valve circuitry — which is a very poor idea and quite unnecessary. Again, step back. What signal is requesting that this appliance run? There must be something. Thermostat? Whatever it is, use that signal to operate your powered damper, and use the end switch closing on the damper to signal the appliance to run.

    Now the first part of the problem — combustion air supply — will be considerably more complex. Not that it is all that difficult. You need to establish a priority tree for the appliances — a schema which shows which appliances may run together and which may not run when others — or certain others — are running. You also need to establish whether any of them will have priority — that is to say, if the priority appliance requests to run, which others will it shut down and lock out while it is calling. This can be done, of course, with relay logic, but it can also be done if you prefer with programming in a logic chip or array.

    May I strongly suggest that this priority logic setup be done in coordination with the end users, and that it be done so that it can be modified if the initial arrangement proves unsatisfactory.

    Now. One other thing: the presumption above is that all this is because the space does not provide adequate combustion air for all the appliances to run simultaneously. In the interest of safety — which should be a primary consideration — you also need to provide a safety. This will take the form of a pressure or flow sensor which breaks when the pressure in the space drops low enough to cause a potential back draught. This sensor should shut down all operating appliances and inhibit starting any, and must be manual reset so that the operator can find and remedy the problem.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    In view of your insightful comments (all of you) I have done some research into the components within the Honeywell gas valve including a PCB (with microcontroller) and a 3-wire thermal sensor.

    I have made the following conclusions.

    The 3-wire thermal sensor is positioned in the bulb in the back of the Honeywell valve. Thus, there is only one thermal sensor (location) on the DHW tank. I can access the three wires by removing the plastic cover from the Honeywell. Optimally (instead of cutting wires) inserting a wire-tap harness with two connectors, in between the plug on the cable of the thermal sensor and the matching PCB outlet

    The 3-wire thermal sensor is an active sensor having a power, a ground (center pin) and a data line.

    The 5-blink error signal described on the cover of the valve is triggered by the MPU's detection of some defective operation of the 3-wire thermal sensor. This error detection is necessary to provide reliability to the 4-blink error feature upon overheating (which triggers a "lockout" of the valve).

    If a 5-blink (thermal sensor) error does not trigger shutdown of the pilot (or lockout), then I can easily cut/switch one of the three wires of the thermal sensor (using the End Switch in the Damper) to delay firing of the burner.

    But on the other hand, if during 5-blink error the MPU will turn off the pilot (upon cut/switch-off of any wire in the 3-wire thermal sensor) then I will need to find a more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner. A more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner may be to obtain a second identical 3-wire thermal sensor (and continuously "heat" it further up higher near the top on the side of the steel DHW tank) and switchably deploy it as a "decoy" sensor to convince the MPU that there is no malfunction in the thermal sensor. Then, provide at least a Single-Pole,Double-Throw rapidly switch to connect the decoy thermal sensor to the MPU (and disconnect the original thermal sensor from the MPU), to avoid the 5-blink error sequence. Depending upon the temperature that triggers a 4-blink overheating lockout, and depending upon how the MPU senses and verifies the data from the thermal sensor, this might work to prevent a 5-blink error. [But, if the whole tank is depleted of hot water up to the top, the MPU will fire the burner, which might happen while the damper is closed. But the open conical hood at the top of the DHW will allow combustion gas to flow by convection, preventing any acute danger of carbon monoxide development in the flame? I have videos of blocked chimneys.]. In my opinion, it would be better to "bit bang" an arduino to simulate the nominal output of a thermal sensor at high temperature, to provide a more reliable decoy thermal sensor signal to the MPU. This would require oscilloscope inspection of the nominal signal from the thermal sensor, and I am disinclined to attempt this.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    Jamie,

    Quote [

    As I understand it, your basic and fundamental objective appears to be to ensure that, first, only a select group of gas fired appliances is running at any given time, to minimize combustion air demand in your space and, second, to reduce the heat loss from the open flue for this particular appliance. Is this correct?] That is correct. Especially considering that the gas clothes dryer has an exhaust fan that creates a negative pressure in the basement (boilers, DHW space) during its hours of operation. Replacing existing DHW with a power-vented DHW would currently aggravate the problem, unless it was provided with its own dedicated fresh air intake from outdoors. It is not practicable to provide four separate PVC fresh air intakes (and four holes in the exterior wall). In order to add insulation and make the basement "tighter" airwise, and to allow us to close the open window/door currently providing fresh air for gas combustion, and to thus avoid risk f freezing pipes in basement, we need to cut hole in wall and affirmatively provide a dedicated fresh air intake pipe (with powered baffle). With consideration of existing plumbing, we have only have a space for adding one 8 inch tall round or rectangular fresh air intake (one hole in 8-inch block wall). The idea is to time-multiplex that single fresh air source using a 24VAC damper and a mesh of 24VAC relays (or perhaps a programable circuit as your suggested) to detect and delay the fire-ON status of each of the gas burning appliances. I have not decided whether the power-vented gas dryer will have priority over the gas boilers. But I have decided that each of the two currently-independent Utica Gas Boilers will lock the other out (First come first served, with latch-off of the other) and both boilers will have priority over the one (or two) DHW burners.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited January 31

    Quote [Now. One other thing: the presumption above is that all this is because the space does not provide adequate combustion air for all the appliances to run simultaneously. In the interest of safety — which should be a primary consideration — you also need to provide a safety. This will take the form of a pressure or flow sensor which breaks when the pressure in the space drops low enough to cause a potential back draught. This sensor should shut down all operating appliances and inhibit starting any, and must be manual reset so that the operator can find and remedy the problem.]

    There are 8-inch fresh air dampers that come with a differential pressure sensor for this scenario. I was not intending to use that type. My approach would be to delay the firing of any appliance until the 8 inch fresh air power vent had already been opened (using its End Switch) But, I like your suggestion of adding a failsafe feature based on sensing air pressure. Why not. I have some salvaged vacuum sensor switches taken off from a power vented gas furnace. I can hack these switches to reduce their threshhold activating pressure differential so they can failsafe-open the 8 inch fresh air damper in override of any of the other signals.

    P.S. I would not include a "manual reset" feature, because this could trigger a house-freezing and pipe-bursting scenario. I might add a pressure-difference "alarm" (via 24VAC audio/blinker alarm from TEMU) and an email alarm feature via a ESP32 monitor.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,532

    Making progress here! I'd skip the idea of controlling the thermopile equipped units directly by the powered dampers. Rather I'd intercept the signal which controls them with the powered damper, and use the powered damper end switch as the signal to the equipment. That way you are not trying to fiddle with the thermopile circuity at all — just whatever is controlling it.

    Does that make sense to you?

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited January 31

    Jamie,

    Quote[use the powered damper end switch as the signal to the equipment]. I am trying to externally control (delay) the firing of the DHW burner (based on status of the other gas appliances in same room, and status of the added fresh air intake damper). If the DHW was designed like a typical milivolt gas furnace, this would be easy, because the wire to the burner's gas valve is explicit (e.g., passes through the burner TCO and safety switches) and easily accessible. The problem here is that in the DHW Honeywell valve setup the millivolt "wire" between the control PCB and the burner gas valve does not exist. Rather, there is an electrode PIN (plug) that pushes into through the PCB board (outlet). There is no accessible "wire" to cut/switch for my purpose of delay the fire-ON of the burner. It would be necessary to modify the Honeywell, pulling the PCB off the 3 pins, to make space to install some 3 new wires in between the 3 valve pins (plugs) and the 3 PCB receptacle holes (outlets). This is possible, but adding wires and connectors to the pins would require sourcing unusual shaped connectors and might be vulnerable to various failure scenarios. But ultimately, this might be the safest and most practicable solution.

    In view of your insightful comments (all of you) I have done some research into the components within the Honeywell gas valve including a PCB (with microcontroller) and a 3-wire thermal sensor.I have made the following conclusions.
    The 3-wire thermal sensor is positioned in the bulb in the back of the Honeywell valve. Thus, there is only one thermal sensor (location) on the DHW tank. I can access the three wires by removing the plastic cover from the Honeywell. Optimally (instead of cutting wires) inserting a wire-tap harness with two connectors, in between the plug on the cable of the thermal sensor and the matching PCB outlet
    The 3-wire thermal sensor is an active sensor having a power, a ground (center pin) and a data line. The 5-blink error signal described on the cover of the valve is triggered by the MPU's detection of some defective operation of the 3-wire thermal sensor. This error detection is necessary to provide reliability to the 4-blink error feature upon overheating (which triggers a "lockout" of the valve).If a 5-blink (thermal sensor) error does not trigger shutdown of the pilot (or lockout), then I can easily cut/switch one of the three wires of the thermal sensor (using the End Switch in the Damper) to delay firing of the burner.But on the other hand, if during 5-blink error the MPU will turn off the pilot (upon cut/switch-off of any wire in the 3-wire thermal sensor) then I will need to find a more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner. A more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner may be to obtain a second identical 3-wire thermal sensor (and continuously "heat" it further up higher near the top on the side of the steel DHW tank) and switchably deploy it as a "decoy" sensor to convince the MPU that there is no malfunction in the thermal sensor. Then, provide at least a Single-Pole,Double-Throw rapidly switch to connect the decoy thermal sensor to the MPU (and disconnect the original thermal sensor from the MPU), to avoid the 5-blink error sequence. Depending upon the temperature that triggers a 4-blink overheating lockout, and depending upon how the MPU senses and verifies the data from the thermal sensor, this might work to prevent a 5-blink error. [But, if the whole tank is depleted of hot water up to the top, the MPU will fire the burner, which might happen while the damper is closed. But the open conical hood at the top of the DHW will allow combustion gas to flow by convection, preventing any acute danger of carbon monoxide development in the flame? I have videos of blocked chimneys.]. In my opinion, it would be better to "bit bang" an arduino to simulate the nominal output of a thermal sensor at high temperature, to provide a more reliable decoy thermal sensor signal to the MPU. This would require oscilloscope inspection of the nominal signal from the thermal sensor, and I am disinclined to attempt this.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    You plan on living there the rest of your life ? The problem with building something odd for a residential scenario, is when you are gone at the first no heat or no hot water service call received for that address all that gobbledygook is going to be ripped out or disabled. The techs can't repair the equipment now who's going to maintain what you want to build ?

    IMO you would be much better off building a boiler room and supplying the correct combustion air for it. It would isolate the rest of the basement. The dryer would just draft off the leakage of the rest of the house like just about every house in the country.

    I feel sorry for the folks that live there when it is very cold out with heating equipment is locked out when they should be running. Maybe your heating equipment has a 40 % duty cycle on design day, but I doubt it.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,699

    Hi, How about adding a fan to your dampered air inlet? That would give you much more combustion air. I have a combo unit for my kitchen exhaust that has both fan and motorized damper. Then the thing to be figured out is the control logic, and knowing when to activate it. 🤔

    Yours, Larry

    109A_5
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited February 1

    I think I have invented the simplest solution. I will remove the PCB board from the Honeywell gas valve, and put a plastic straw (actually should be a cylindrical scrap of electrical wire insulation such as PVC. Or. wrap several times in a thick Teflon tape PTFE (Teflon)) over (only) the steel PIN for the burner valve on the Honeywell milivolt gas valve, thus preventing electrical contact with the metal fingers (electrodes) of the PCB board outlet. This thin insulator ("straw") prevents the 5 volts? flow of current from the PCB controller to the mechanical gas valve itself during a Call based on the 3-wire thermal sensor output. Then, I will replace the PCB board and then connect or solder a wire to the exposed tip of the steel PIN (of burner valve). I will also connect or solder a wire to the metal fingers (electrodes) of the PCB board outlet (of burner valve). At this stage, I can revert the valve to its nominal operation by twisting together the other ends of the two wires (completing the original circuit through the added wire extensions). Now, with the two wires, I can cut/switch the activation voltage sent to the burner valve (only) during a call for heat. Thus, I can prevent or delay the firing of the burner without interfering with the operation of the pilot, the thermopile, the thermal sensor, or any other aspect of the DHW. [Does the DHW have a burner "flame sensor" function other than the pilot thermopile?] I can wire these two wires through the END Switch of the added 24VAC 4-inch Damper (or through a 24VAC-coil relay operated by concurrence End Switches of the 4-inch Flue Damper and a 8-inch Fresh-Air Damper. I can also externally control the activation of the 4-inch Flue Damper and a 8-inch Fresh-Air Damper using a mesh of 24VAC-coil Relays (DoubleThrow available as Double-Pole, Triple-Pole, and Quad-Pole for a few dollars each on AliExpress). I can latch-off the start of the gas Dryer (has an AC-powered mechanical timer) using a 24VAC relay (turning off 120VAC to the Dryer) pending completion of the Utica Boiler calls. I can latch-off each of the two Utica Burners and the DHW(s) pending completion of the gas Dryer (inherently power vented). At some point, this might be best implemented as a Arduino-controlled with multi-relays, but I believe most of it can be prototyped or implemented using 24VAC relays (e.g., double-throw, quad pole to make it easier)

    Earlier I tried to post:

    Jamie,

    Quote[use the powered damper end switch as the signal to the equipment]. I am trying to externally control (delay) the firing of the DHW burner (based on status of the other gas appliances in same room, and status of the added fresh air intake damper). If the DHW was designed like a typical milivolt gas furnace, this would be easy, because the wire to the burner's gas valve is explicit (e.g., passes through the burner TCO and safety switches) and easily accessible. The problem here is that in the DHW Honeywell valve setup the millivolt "wire" between the control PCB and the burner gas valve does not exist. Rather, there is an electrode PIN (plug) that pushes into through the PCB board (outlet). There is no accessible "wire" to cut/switch for my purpose of delay the fire-ON of the burner. It would be necessary to modify the Honeywell, pulling the PCB off the 3 pins, to make space to install some 3 new wires in between the 3 valve pins (plugs) and the 3 PCB receptacle holes (outlets). This is possible, but adding wires and connectors to the pins would require sourcing unusual shaped connectors and might be vulnerable to various failure scenarios. But ultimately, this might be the safest and most practicable solution.

    In view of your insightful comments (all of you) I have done some research into the components within the Honeywell gas valve including a PCB (with microcontroller) and a 3-wire thermal sensor.I have made the following conclusions.
    The 3-wire thermal sensor is positioned in the bulb in the back of the Honeywell valve. Thus, there is only one thermal sensor (location) on the DHW tank. I can access the three wires by removing the plastic cover from the Honeywell. Optimally (instead of cutting wires) inserting a wire-tap harness with two connectors, in between the plug on the cable of the thermal sensor and the matching PCB outlet
    The 3-wire thermal sensor is an active sensor having a power, a ground (center pin) and a data line. The 5-blink error signal described on the cover of the valve is triggered by the MPU's detection of some defective operation of the 3-wire thermal sensor. This error detection is necessary to provide reliability to the 4-blink error feature upon overheating (which triggers a "lockout" of the valve).If a 5-blink (thermal sensor) error does not trigger shutdown of the pilot (or lockout), then I can easily cut/switch one of the three wires of the thermal sensor (using the End Switch in the Damper) to delay firing of the burner.But on the other hand, if during 5-blink error the MPU will turn off the pilot (upon cut/switch-off of any wire in the 3-wire thermal sensor) then I will need to find a more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner. A more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner may be to obtain a second identical 3-wire thermal sensor (and continuously "heat" it further up higher near the top on the side of the steel DHW tank) and switchably deploy it as a "decoy" sensor to convince the MPU that there is no malfunction in the thermal sensor. Then, provide at least a Single-Pole,Double-Throw rapidly switch to connect the decoy thermal sensor to the MPU (and disconnect the original thermal sensor from the MPU), to avoid the 5-blink error sequence. Depending upon the temperature that triggers a 4-blink overheating lockout, and depending upon how the MPU senses and verifies the data from the thermal sensor, this might work to prevent a 5-blink error. [But, if the whole tank is depleted of hot water up to the top, the MPU will fire the burner, which might happen while the damper is closed. But the open conical hood at the top of the DHW will allow combustion gas to flow by convection, preventing any acute danger of carbon monoxide development in the flame? I have videos of blocked chimneys.]. In my opinion, it would be better to "bit bang" an arduino to simulate the nominal output of a thermal sensor at high temperature, to provide a more reliable decoy thermal sensor signal to the MPU. This would require oscilloscope inspection of the nominal signal from the thermal sensor, and I am disinclined to attempt this.

    HVACNUT
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,599
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    Larry,

    Quote: "adding a fan to your dampered air inlet? That would give you much more combustion air."

    I personally do not know how a positive pressure in the furnace-room/basement would affect the three (will be four) convection-operated gas appliances there. It would likely accelerate the exit of air and gas fumes up the chimney. I would not want to force air through these devices faster than it is intended. But, given that there is a open gap and a cone at top of each gas appliance before start of flue, presumably there would be no direct "differential pressure" from bottom (intake) to top (exit) within each gas appliance. But, my plan is to feed fresh air through a 8-inch fresh air duct to feed one-at-a-time the gas burners having 4-inch and 6-inch flues. So, it is not currently apparent that a fan will be necessary to import the fresh air.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    Hello Larry Weingarten,

    I like that idea, two relays to implement, one on each boiler, if either boiler has a call for heat the fan and motorized damper is energized. Easy to maintain.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    Nope, you open a supervised circuit you get an error.

    " 7 Flashes: Gas control valve failure. Replacement is required. "

    Maybe a few cold showers will cure the desire…

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    Steamhead, and EBEBRARR-Ed,

    The 2 Utica natural gas boilers adjacent to this DHW both have third-party add-on motorized Dampers (6-inch) that are wired using their End Switches in exactly the same manner (plus low-water cutoffs, one using 24VAC and the other cutting off 120VAC) to interrupt/delay the firing of these gas burners during a Call from each's independent thermostats (pending opening of the respective damper). Should I also be ripping out these two motorized Dampers from the Utica gas Boilers in response to your vague warnings???? If your concern was based on only modifying the Honeywell Gas Valve circuit to add a safety latch feature at the burner valve … the only way that setup could malfunction in a hazardous manner would be that if the insulator (PVC straw or wire-insulation) used to disconnect the burner valve from the Fire-ON voltage at the PVC board would fail to prevent electrical contact (between valve PIN and PCB fingers) and permit the burner gas valve to operate while the 4-inch Damper was Closed. As an experiment, I disconnected the flue vents from the DHW tank and the one adjacent Utica Boilers and plugged the flue holes in the Chimney. I let these two gas appliances operate independently in a vacant house in the presence of four Carbon Monoxide Detectors. Including two CO detectors that show numbers of PPM counts at sub-alarm quantities. None of the four CO Detectors detected any CO at all. There are in existence "no vent" gas heaters available for inside home use. I have seen videos where chimneys fail and the exit of DHW fumes is prevented. My conclusion is that even in the unlikely event that the added DHW damper is closed while burner valve opens, the gap at the cones at the start of the flue will permit normal convection flow of air into the gas appliances and there is no significant risk of CO. Further, have purchased a Relay from First Alert company that operates as a NC/NO relay when the 120VAC-powered carbon monoxide detector is alarming. Thus, together with my intended minimal modification of the Honeywell Gas Valve circuit I can shut down the DHW heater and shut down all and any of the gas appliances in the basement upon detection of alarm-level of CO. If you are unable to identify any other risks or failure scenarios, then your general but vague warning is appreciated for the benefit of others who many not have the technical competence to safely implement these improvements, but I am not persuaded that my simple modification (bringing the Honeywell control circuit up to the safety standards that are commonly implemented for existing gas furnaces/boilers) could add any risk, and I believe it will REDUCE RISKs.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    109A_5,

    Quote: [You plan on living there the rest of your life ? The problem with building something odd for a residential scenario, is when you are gone at the first no heat or no hot water service call received for that address all that gobbledygook is going to be ripped out or disabled. The techs can't repair the equipment now who's going to maintain what you want to build ? … I feel sorry for the folks that live there when it is very cold out with heating equipment is locked out when they should be running."

    These are good points to consider. I might be living there in my Eighties and forget how I wired this up, and the boiler or DHW has to be replaced by someone else. I think that to mitigate this issue, I will add TAGs to the wires that provide clear instructions HOW TO REVERT THIS [DHW, BOILER] TO INDEPENDENT OPERATION. The wires to be connected/disconnected will be labeled DHW1_1, DHW1_2, and wiring instructions to revert the connections to original independent configuration will be provided at the scene of the crime. Additionally, an operational/explanatory manual will be written for the setup as a whole. Also, each relay will have its function described on a label.

    Also, the relay mesh (or control circuit) should be implemented such that the failure or removal of any one gas appliance from the room does not hinder nominal operation of the circuit for control of the remaining appliances.

    Thank you for the insights.

    As for constructing a "boiler room" partition walls around the two gas boilers (and the two DHW), that would not solve the original problem of not having a safe dedicated Fresh Air source in the basement as a whole. And, would hinder maintenance/inspection of the boilers and DHW. At this time, sheets of sheetrock are deployed in front as moveable partitions to prevent unintentional touching or access to the boilers (by persons transiting to the gas clothes dryer and washing machine)

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    " Should I also be ripping out these two motorized Dampers from the Utica gas Boilers in response to your vague warnings???? "

    I think if you do the research those boilers came with that equipment and it is certified by Utica for use on their equipment. They are in their wiring diagrams and manuals. Utica just did not make the vent dampers just like Honeywell probably did not make your hot water heater.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited February 1

    109A_5

    Quote: [if you open a supervised circuit you get an error. 7 Flashes: Gas control valve failure. Replacement is required]

    Good point.

    Depending on the sophistication of the method of verifying the burner solenoid circuit, it should be possible to overcome this "open" circuit error risk by using a double-throw RELAY such that the PCB thinks that it still connected to solenoid coil (burner) but is instead connected to a DECOY (coil or resistor of sufficient equivalent impedance/resistance). If the "supervisor" method is simply to measure a steady-state CURRENT (ON resistance = OFF resistance) through the valve then a simple resistor of the appropriate Ohms should be sufficient to prevent the "7 Flashes: Gas control valve failure" error? The static Resistance through the burner coil solenoid can be directly measured through the two PINs (ground at bottom).

    This video states that a burner valve solenoid (measured between the PINS) should be 10 Ohms (not more than 13 Ohms). Thus, a 10 Ohm resistor presumably would be an appropriate and sufficient DECOY current path.

    Honeywell Water Heater Valve Code7 / 7 Flash's Water Heater Service Call

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekEwRgPxdWM

    A matching resistor equivalent can then be wired into the NO (normally open) position of the Relay, to act as a DECOY to satisfy the supervisor function of the PCB microcontroller while the "millivolt" power is actually disconnected (through the NC pole of the Relay) from the PIN of the burner solenoid. (The PCB board has two coils and two capacitors on it. So I infer it has at least one BOOST circuit to boost the thermopile milivolts up to around 5 volts sufficient to operate the microcontroller and/or the valve solenoids).
    Thus, the same intended Delay-the-fire function can be obtained using an additional 24VAC-coil SPDT relay (controlled by the END Switch of the added 4-inch Damper and the END Switch of the 8inch Fresh Air Damper) and a Decoy (e.g., resistor).

    The next question is, (how) could there be a distinct "Flame Sense Error" detector other than the thermopile itself. Can a thermopile be used to detect a pilot flame differently from a pilot-plus-burner flame? I see no additional wires to implement a distinct burner "flame sensor". The thermopile wire is connected through the TCO (rollout sensor) at the bottom. A Flame Sense Error may be limited to detecting a low voltage upon the thermopile wire (and thus would be activated by a turn-OFF of the TCO during a transient flame rollout caused by atmosphere pressure inversion). Thus, a Flame Sense Error should not result in a lockout requiring manual reset.

    P.S.

    Anecdotally, the 7 Flashes Gas control valve failure error in a "Honeywell" valve does NOT compel "replacement" of the PCB/Valve. But, such error may cause turn-off of the pilot valve and thus require manual-restart of the pilot flame.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Plumbing/comments/kq3xzs/water_heater_7_blinks_gas_control_or_valve_failure/

    And see, reset instructions for a similar Honeywell (Resideo) WV8840C1513 gas valve.

    Honeywell Home Water Heater Control Reset after 7-Flashes Error Code

    How I reset my Honeywell (Resideo) Home Water Heater Gas Control Valve When It Failed With 7-Flashes Error Code.-Failure indicated "Gas Control or Valve Failure" -Valve: Honeywell (Resideo) WV8840C1513-Water Heater

    "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZrApWtz4_0"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=pJZUyGgU9ThSsYSU&v=5f6UFwRlXr8&feature=youtu.be

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,599
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095
    edited February 1

    I'd want to explore the communications port. Maybe something useful there.

    Re: Honeywell WV8840 Water Heater Control

    Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:24 pm

    The valves are using IRDA serial protocol as physical layer, if I recall correctly, plain IRDA on TX and reversed IRDA on RX.
    As for the message content, this is pure binary, and resembles a modified version Honeywell Binary Protocol. Each message starts inevitably with one byte tag (127 decimal), followed by a byte representing the function type, then depending on the function type the message body varies and finally the message ends with two bytes Modbus CRC16 checksum. Well, you know now pretty much everything you need to crack this one on your own. Have fun! I know I did.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095
    edited February 1

    http://waterheatertimer.org/pdf/Bradford-white-service-manual-44943-D.pdf

    Page 22, 23 looks like the temperature sensor is just two common 10K @ 77 degree Fahrenheit thermistors.

    The circuit board maybe a different version than yours.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited February 1

    Quote: [Page 22, 23 looks like the temperature sensor is just two common 10K @ 77 degree Fahrenheit thermistors.]

    Previously, because of the 3-wires of the thermal sensor (and the microcontroller on the PCB) I concluded that the 3-wire thermal sensor is and "active" device sending a "data" signal. But now 109A_5 has shown evidence that the thermal sensor is an analog 2-terminal circuit element that has a passive resistance that varies inversely (almost linearly, but deterministically and monontonically) with increase of temperature. (I do not know what material on Earth has a resistance that decreases with an increase of temperature, but there it is)

    This means that selecting an ordinary Resistor having a resistance on the chart provided at page 22 ( http://waterheatertimer.org/pdf/Bradford-white-service-manual-44943-D.pdf ) can be used as a DECOY (at the NO normally-open terminal of a Double-Throw relay) to signal a high-enough temperature (e.g. 150 degrees?) to delay the onset of FIRE-ON at the burner valve of the Honeywell. [In that case, this provides a second option for using a Relay to delay onset of Fire-ON. Because Double-Throw relays can be obtained with Four Poles, both DECOYs resistances can be deployed simultaneously if there is any advantage for doing so. ] This Decoy resistance is swtiched in for the purpose of avoiding the 5-blink error while tricking the microprocessor into believing that the water temperature is already high enough to not require opening the burner valve (and not too high to trigger a 4 blink high temperature lockout).

    The 3-wire thermal sensor is positioned in the bulb in the back of the Honeywell valve. Thus, there is only one thermal sensor (location) on the DHW tank. I can access the three wires by removing the plastic cover from the Honeywell. Optimally (instead of cutting wires) inserting a wire-tap harness with two connectors, in between the plug on the cable of the thermal sensor and the matching PCB outlet


    The 5-blink error signal described on the cover of the valve is triggered by the MPU's detection of some defective operation of the 3-wire thermal sensor. This error detection is necessary to provide reliability to the 4-blink error feature upon overheating (which triggers a "lockout" of the valve).

    If a 5-blink (thermal sensor) error does not trigger shutdown of the pilot (or lockout), then I can easily Relay-switch among two of the three wires (e.g., the center pin and another pin as show at page 20) of the thermal sensor wires (using the End Switch in the Damper) through the DECOY RESISTOR, to delay firing of the burner.

    Because during 5-blink error the MPU will turn off the pilot (upon cut/switch-off of any wire in the 3-wire thermal sensor) (and just cutting/switching the wire of the thermal sensor will produce an infinite resistance that will trigger high temperature 4-blink error lockout) it is necessary to use a double-throw relay and precisely tuned resistor to delay the firing of the burner. Depending upon the temperature that triggers a 4-blink overheating lockout, and depending upon how the MPU senses and verifies the data from the thermal sensor, this probably will work to prevent a 5-blink error. If a resistor is selected to prevent 5-blink error, it probably must be coordinated matched) with the temperature setting on the temperature dial on Honeywell (which can be inadvertently changed). This resistance-dial matching requirement is a possible risk of failure (e.g. failure to disable the burner valve, potential to continuously enable the burner valve). Thus, cutting/switching the burner valve solenoid voltage at the PIN may still be necessary.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    Jamie,

    Quote[use the powered damper end switch as the signal to the equipment]. I am trying to externally control (delay) the firing of the DHW burner (based on status of the other gas appliances in same room, and status of the added fresh air intake damper). If the DHW was designed like a typical milivolt gas furnace, this would be easy, because the wire to the burner's gas valve is explicit (e.g., passes through the burner TCO and safety switches) and easily accessible. The problem here is that in the DHW Honeywell valve setup the millivolt "wire" between the control PCB and the burner gas valve does not exist. Rather, there is an electrode PIN (plug) that pushes into through the PCB board (outlet). There is no accessible "wire" to cut/switch for my purpose of delay the fire-ON of the burner. It would be necessary to modify the Honeywell, pulling the PCB off the 3 pins, to make space to install some 3 new wires in between the 3 valve pins (plugs) and the 3 PCB receptacle holes (outlets). This is possible, but adding wires and connectors to the pins would require sourcing unusual shaped connectors and might be vulnerable to various failure scenarios. But ultimately, this might be the safest and most practicable solution.

    In view of your insightful comments (all of you) I have done some research into the components within the Honeywell gas valve including a PCB (with microcontroller) and a 3-wire thermal sensor.I have made the following conclusions.
    The 3-wire thermal sensor is positioned in the bulb in the back of the Honeywell valve. Thus, there is only one thermal sensor (location) on the DHW tank. I can access the three wires by removing the plastic cover from the Honeywell. Optimally (instead of cutting wires) inserting a wire-tap harness with two connectors, in between the plug on the cable of the thermal sensor and the matching PCB outlet
    The 3-wire thermal sensor is an active sensor having a power, a ground (center pin) and a data line. The 5-blink error signal described on the cover of the valve is triggered by the MPU's detection of some defective operation of the 3-wire thermal sensor. This error detection is necessary to provide reliability to the 4-blink error feature upon overheating (which triggers a "lockout" of the valve).If a 5-blink (thermal sensor) error does not trigger shutdown of the pilot (or lockout), then I can easily cut/switch one of the three wires of the thermal sensor (using the End Switch in the Damper) to delay firing of the burner.But on the other hand, if during 5-blink error the MPU will turn off the pilot (upon cut/switch-off of any wire in the 3-wire thermal sensor) then I will need to find a more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner. A more sophisticated way to delay the firing of the burner may be to obtain a second identical 3-wire thermal sensor (and continuously "heat" it further up higher near the top on the side of the steel DHW tank) and switchably deploy it as a "decoy" sensor to convince the MPU that there is no malfunction in the thermal sensor. Then, provide at least a Single-Pole,Double-Throw rapidly switch to connect the decoy thermal sensor to the MPU (and disconnect the original thermal sensor from the MPU), to avoid the 5-blink error sequence. Depending upon the temperature that triggers a 4-blink overheating lockout, and depending upon how the MPU senses and verifies the data from the thermal sensor, this might work to prevent a 5-blink error. [But, if the whole tank is depleted of hot water up to the top, the MPU will fire the burner, which might happen while the damper is closed. But the open conical hood at the top of the DHW will allow combustion gas to flow by convection, preventing any acute danger of carbon monoxide development in the flame? I have videos of blocked chimneys.]. In my opinion, it would be better to "bit bang" an arduino to simulate the nominal output of a thermal sensor at high temperature, to provide a more reliable decoy thermal sensor signal to the MPU. This would require oscilloscope inspection of the nominal signal from the thermal sensor, and I am disinclined to attempt this.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    109A_5

    Quote:"The [Honeywell valve PCB boards] are using IRDA serial protocol as physical layer" and a Texas Instruments microcontroller.

    You must be an electrical engineer to know all about that serial communication stuff.

    I noticed that the Texas Instruments MPU has only ONE Analog-to-Digital converter. So, if I locate the external pin for that one ADC, I may be able to:

    follow the solder trace to wherever it is deployed to measure [resistance through a voltage divider] [voltage at the thermopile plug] etc. In order to measure two different features, the ADC would have to be externally multiplexed (time shared) on the PCB. [implies the use of at least one binary signal at an output pin of the MPU and a selector device, e.g., Q, on the PCB] It may be possible to infer what quantities the ADC has been deployed to measure. Thus, it might be confirmed that the microprocessor is using methods [X, Y or Z] to supervise error features [3, 4, 5 flashes etc.] in a time-segmented manner. In that case, the probability of success [in using DECOY-substituting Double-Throw relays] can be increased.

    P.S.

    If one wanted to completely convert the Honeywell PCB board into a component of a remote monitoring system, they might connect another microprocessor to the various pins of the TI MPU, to:

    1) detect and count the flash signals output to the LED by the TI MPU, thus externally monitoring the status of the DHW, etc.

    All of which information could then be exported using an inexpensive ESP32 arduino via WiFi or Bluetooth to a local computer and/or or over internet. (or a LORA network)

    Someone also might be able to salvage a Honeywell PCB board from a leaking DHW and deploy the PCB and its attached sensors for use in operating/monitoring other DIY apparatus, such as the guy here elsewhere who wanted to heat water in pipes using firewood.

    P.P.S.

    Concerning your invitation to explore the internals of the microprocessor through the serial port, I have seen youtube videos of experts doing similar things with commercial products. I don't believe that endeavor is strictly necessary for results in this in my project. If someone were to accomplish this exploration of the MPU, they should extract the MPU runtime firmware and use GenerativeAI to decrypt the Machine Code to detect and explain the algorithms being employed using the single ADC. This assumes that the GenAI model has been finetuned to learn the binary/hex Assembler Machine Code instruction set internal to that TI MPU, and also the internal address location values for the ADC etcetera.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    I was curious about the clever "10K" NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient) "thermistor". It turns out that it is commonly used for room-temperature scale wall type boiler/floorheating thermostats. E.g.,

    https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805009967544.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.8.5ecb8RXL8RXL7t&algo_pvid=4a188a6a-4944-49f1-91f4-f6cd51b38244&algo_exp_id=4a188a6a-4944-49f1-91f4-f6cd51b38244-7&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%2163.37%2114.11%21%21%21459.50%21102.30%21%402101ea8c17384307227991252e0518%2112000032092055182%21sea%21US%210%21ABX&curPageLogUid=SHawI9TGxHAa&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A#nav-specification

    I asked Google Gemini [2.0 Flash Thinking Experimental 01-21] to explain the operation and applications for a 10K NTC thermistor:

    My Prompt:

    In a thermostat for boiler control explain this specification: Sensor: NTC, 10K

    Model response:

    Let's break down the specification "Sensor: NTC, 10K" in the context of a thermostat for boiler control. This specification tells us two key things about the temperature sensor used in the thermostat:

    1. Sensor Type: NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient)

    • NTC stands for "Negative Temperature Coefficient". This is the crucial part. It describes how the sensor's electrical resistance changes with temperature.
    • Negative Coefficient means: As the temperature increases, the electrical resistance of the NTC sensor decreases. Conversely, as the temperature decreases, the resistance increases.
    • Why NTC is used in thermostats:
      • Sensitivity to Temperature Change: NTC thermistors are very sensitive to changes in temperature, making them ideal for accurately detecting and responding to temperature fluctuations needed for precise thermostat control.
      • Relatively Linear Response (within a range): While not perfectly linear, NTC thermistors offer a reasonably predictable and usable change in resistance over a typical temperature range suitable for heating and cooling applications.
      • Cost-Effective: NTC thermistors are generally inexpensive compared to other types of temperature sensors, making them a practical choice for mass-produced thermostats.
      • Robust and Reliable: They are generally robust and reliable devices suitable for the environment of a heating system.

    In simpler terms, think of it like this: The NTC sensor is like a resistor that "reacts" to heat. When it gets warmer, it becomes easier for electricity to flow through it (lower resistance). When it gets colder, it becomes harder for electricity to flow (higher resistance). The thermostat's electronics measure this change in resistance to determine the temperature.

    2. Resistance Value: 10K (10 Kilohms)

    • 10K refers to the nominal resistance value of the NTC thermistor at a specific reference temperature. The standard reference temperature for NTC thermistors is typically 25°C (room temperature).
    • 10K means 10,000 Ohms. This is the resistance the sensor should have when it's at 25°C.
    • Why 10K is specified:
      • Standard Value: 10K is a very common and widely used standard resistance value for NTC thermistors in temperature sensing applications. This makes them readily available and cost-effective.
      • Suitable Resistance Range: 10K provides a good starting resistance value for typical thermostat circuits. The change in resistance around this value, as temperature varies in a typical heating range, is easily measurable and processable by the thermostat's electronic circuitry.
      • Compatibility with Circuitry: Using a standard 10K value simplifies the design of the thermostat's electronic circuit. Engineers know they can use standard components and calculation methods designed for this resistance range.
      • Sensitivity and Range Balance: A 10K NTC thermistor offers a good balance between sensitivity (how much the resistance changes per degree of temperature change) and the overall temperature range it can effectively measure.

    In summary, "Sensor: NTC, 10K" in a boiler thermostat specification means:

    The thermostat uses a Negative Temperature Coefficient (NTC) thermistor as its temperature sensor. This sensor's resistance decreases as the temperature increases. At a standard reference temperature of 25°C (room temperature), this specific NTC thermistor will have a resistance of approximately 10,000 Ohms (10 Kilohms). The thermostat's electronics will then monitor the changes in resistance of this 10K NTC thermistor to accurately measure the temperature and control the boiler accordingly to maintain the desired room temperature.

    Why is this important for the thermostat and boiler control?

    • Accurate Temperature Measurement: The NTC 10K sensor provides the thermostat with the crucial input – the current temperature. Without an accurate sensor, the thermostat cannot effectively control the boiler.
    • Reliable Boiler Operation: By using a reliable and predictable sensor like an NTC thermistor, the thermostat can provide stable and consistent boiler control, ensuring the heating system operates efficiently and maintains the desired temperature.
    • Cost-Effective Solution: NTC thermistors are a cost-effective choice for temperature sensing, which helps keep the overall cost of the thermostat reasonable while maintaining good performance.

    Therefore, "Sensor: NTC, 10K" is a common and sensible specification for a boiler thermostat, indicating a reliable, cost-effective, and accurate method for temperature sensing.

  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited February 1

    The 24VAC RELAYS that I contemplate using to implement the Decoy-Swapping and control circuits are, for example, the Double-Throw 4-pole models:

    HH64P (AC) at 24VAC Relays PLUS matching "HH64P Base" (at 10 AMPs)

    available here.

    https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806188043194.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller.1.2abd8OcN8OcN5n&gps-id=pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.14452.396806.0&scm_id=1007.14452.396806.0&scm-url=1007.14452.396806.0&pvid=2de5a988-fa16-4271-8988-bba368c67ec5&_t=gps-id:pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.14452.396806.0,pvid:2de5a988-fa16-4271-8988-bba368c67ec5,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238109%231935&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%2112.61%215.07%21%21%2191.46%2136.77%21%402103209b17384399518136140e41b2%2112000036944364578%21rec%21US%21%21ABXZ&utparam-url=scene%3ApcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller%7Cquery_from%3A&search_p4p_id=202502011159118537766260083574659199_0

    or here

    https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805523330270.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.d20638da8GSOuZ&mp=1&_gl=111msb0j_gcl_awR0NMLjE3MzgzMDcwMzAuQ2owS0NRaUE0LXk4QmhDM0FSSXNBSG1qQ19HdW4zck9NdFdWbU11OXZ5ek8ydlZ3d1BmNUhGNHFlWXpWZ24wSno1bUo0cnRrOUFrV1l1c2FBa0UxRUFMd193Y0I._gcl_dcR0NMLjE3MzgzMDcwMzAuQ2owS0NRaUE0LXk4QmhDM0FSSXNBSG1qQ19HdW4zck9NdFdWbU11OXZ5ek8ydlZ3d1BmNUhGNHFlWXpWZ24wSno1bUo0cnRrOUFrV1l1c2FBa0UxRUFMd193Y0I._gcl_auMTE2NTk4NTI5OS4xNzM2NDY2Mzg4_gaMTI5MDgyMTg4NDA4ODE2NC4xNzM2NDY2Mzc5MzA2_ga_VED1YSGNC7*MTczODQzODIyMS4yNS4xLjE3Mzg0NDA3MzcuNDMuMC4w&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

    These are not very expensive (at quantity 10) and the 4-poles (four parallel 10 Amp switches as the fanout for each 24VAC relay coil) will increase design options and flexibility and probably reduce the total number of relay (coils) that would need to be employed and powered to make the control logic do what it needs to do. (Note I think that some vendors on AliExpress specify and offer different HH64P 5 AMP Bases and 10 AMP bases at different prices)

    Unused poles or throws might also be wired directly to Arduino (E.g., ESP32) board pins to provide a system status reporting feature via WiFi, Bluetooth and/or internet.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    I think your assessment of the ADC in the MSP430G2533 has a flaw, yes there is only one converter of one type of ADC but is it multiplexed between 8 channels, so access to it is via up to 8 pins.

    I still think the engineering zeal should be on updating the building to safely provide the proper combustion air for all the heating equipment.

    Your 'reinventing the wheel' may have have a flat tire that needs repair with every new water heater, since apparently engineers like to eat so they keep changing things that work fine to draw a paycheck. They may keep changing the gas valve on you with each new heater. The building is less likely to change.

    BTW the communications port (at least one purpose) was for networking to a 'smart' type system to modify the behavior of the hot water heater for vacation and other type events. They either priced it out of existence and/or there was no demand for it.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    Larry Weingarten
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43

    109A_5

    Quote: "yes there is only one converter of one type of ADC but is it multiplexed between 8 channels, so access to it is via up to 8 pins"

    Good, thank you. That was puzzling, as most of the error codes imply an analog measurement, and there did not appear to be any channel switching IC on the PCB. The channel switching is done internally within the microprocessor and various MPU pins are used to measure different parameters as voltages (at 8 different times). The same visual method of interpreting the PCB board can be applied given the identity of the 8 ADC sampling pins, to help determine the method of computing the "error" for each signal available on the PCB Board (e.g., thermal sensor (resistance), thermopile voltage, resistance through the burner coil, etc.)

    The 8-time multiplex of the single ADC also means that there is an 8x-lower risk that during the Relay-switching interval (while the throw is flying from one pole to the other) there will be a measurement glitch to trigger a error code. In some cases this glitch risk could be further mitigated. Because there are two avenues to delay onset of burner FIRE-ON, presumably one of the two circuits will be transited to the Decoy resistor in a glitch-free manner at the moment that the relay throw flies. At worst, the PCB control circuit will (without causing a burner valve FIRE-ON) shut off the pilot and trigger a lockout requiring manual reset and restart of the PCB board (at least, in the above stated model of Honeywell valve PCB).

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,095

    Well the ADC conversion time is rather fast compared to a relay change of state and contact bounce. Also they may not be using all 8 channels and the channels they are using and when used are probably software defined. They could easily sample the thermistors a 1000 times for each sample of the user input potentiometer and the raw system input voltage.

    The software may be rather critical of the health, status and comparison of the two thermistors, normally the water temperature would change rather slowly compared to the possible sampling rate the microcontroller could provide. Since it is not doing any serial communications processing it is free to just sample the analog inputs. So the amount of analog samples per second may be quite high.

    The thing I would explore is the analog control of the user interface knob (a potentiometer). Since the software may be less critical of odd transients there. Staying within the normal voltage range that the ADC would see from the users potentiometer's setting would probably not be too hard. A voltage offset with an added resistor through a set of contacts to the circuit common or Vcc may be all that is needed.

    Example; If the user control has an ADC range of 1 to 2 volts where

    1 volt = OFF

    2 volts = Very Hot

    your normal temperature setting is set to "B" for maybe 140 Degree water and the ADC is seeing a voltage about 1.75.

    It should be fairly easy to pull the voltage down to say 1.25 for Vacation mode or a bit lower. There are other methods to offset the voltage to a fixed predetermined value for the ADC to see, but if the temperature setting is never changed a simple resistor switched into the circuit may work fine.

    What I don't know, is if you went all the way down to 1 volt (for example) for OFF, if that just shuts off the burner so no water is heated at all or if it also causes the pilot to shut off too.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Martial_7erran
    Martial_7erran Member Posts: 43
    edited February 2

    Quote:[I still think the engineering zeal should be on updating the building to safely provide the proper combustion air for all the heating equipment.]

    There are two overriding concerns that require the feature of being able to externally turnoff/delay the DHW and to install a Flue Damper on all convection-operated gas burners. (Clothes Dryer operation pulls in Carbon Monoxide Gas down chimney) (carbon monoxide detector shut-off feature)

    There already is enough "combustion air for all the heating equipment" because the house basement is old and drafty, and a door/window is intentionally left open to admit air in the summer and winter. But, this leaves the basement very cold, unheated, unused in winter, and one boiler pipe in baseboard in basement froze burst during a sharp cold snap this winter. Plans are for using foam around rim joist, closing basement-ceiling holes, and other upgrades to air-tight the basement, which will more require a dedicated fresh air supply. Because of winter cold, a damper on the new fresh air intake is necessary. A damper must be coordinated with the fire-ON of some or all of the gas burners. Concrete block must be broken to bring in fresh air, so this and space/existingplumbing, practically limits to one (time-multiplexed) dedicated air with a 8-inch-tall damper.

    More compelling: When the Gas Dryer (or any dryer) fires, the internal fan creates suction in basement and blows warm humid air out of the basement. This carries the potential to draw undampered flue combustion gasses DOWN the chimney and into the basement. Thus, combustion gas from DHW can accumulate in basement for an hour during dryer operation. And, also the two Utica boilers, although they have 6-inch dampers, can have their combustion gas in chimney sucked down chimney and accumulate in basement during dryer operation. Plans for further Air-tighting the basement will increase the risk of this combustion fumes accumulation problem.

    Especially given the clothes dryer and the plan to air-tight the basement, there is a risk of carbon monoxide accumulation because of four other gas burners (2 independent gas boilers, 2 independent gas DHW) (currently all convection-based because hard to PVC pipe fresh air and exhaust gas at this space). I have already purchased the FIRST ALERT brand RELAY that has NC and NO (Double Throw, Single Pole) activated when the wired 120VAC-powered CO Detector alarms. So, with this CO Detector switch on hand, it is optimal to at least have a way to DELAY or SHUT OFF the independent gas DHW in case of CO Alarm. Combining the FIRST ALERT relay with a four-pole Relay (from AliExpress) provides an easy way to SHUT OFF or delay-fire at least four separate gas appliances (2 independent gas boilers, 2 independent gas DHW) assuming that the standalone gas DHW has an external wire that can be cut/switched (obtaining an external wire that can be used DELAY fire, without triggering lockout and manual reset, is object of this modification). [Obviously, I can cut/switch the red/white wire at the bottom TCO (rollout switch) to TURN OFF the Pilot and burner of the DHW. But, this requires manual restart ]

    In short, the risks described are common, and Honeywell and DHW-maker should have already provided the necessary external 5 volt input wire to enable switchable external control of delay-fire of the burner valve, and a 5Volt output wire for relay-activation of a flue damper and fresh-air damper.