New Century House with Two Pipe Steam - Questions
Comments
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i'm betting it is one of the radiators that has a new valve
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New valve + failed trap, yes. I'll bet the composition gaskets on the sylphon valves have all failed as well making things depend on the traps.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
one easy way I have found to “test” steam traps is to remove the cap and see if the radiator behaves differently. Traps fail open or closed. If the trap fails closed, air cannot vent and steam cannot enter. Removing the cap will let you determine if the problem is the trap or something else downstream.
Even replacing the guts is expensive. I replaced 17 innards ~15 years ago on a then 85 year old system but threw them all in a box and kept them. I recently plumbed a takeoff on my main with a valve where I could install a trap and test it. 16 of the 17 elements that I replaced 15 years ago are good. Now they are spares.
IMO, it is great to spend money where you need but not indiscriminately.
One place I spent was the low pressure gauge. Impressive seeing these things run on a couple of inches of water pressure.
Obviously, be careful with the steam but you will feel the radiator getting warm and hear and see the condensate long before the steam becomes dangerous.
If the trap has failed open and the radiator doesn’t heat, the problem lies elsewhere. If the down stream side of the trap is steam hot it has failed open, or some other part of the system is back feeding steam on the return side.
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Hey everyone, apologies for the radio silence, and a big thank you for all of your helpful info. I FINALLY found some time to get the suspect traps open and I’m ordering some Tunstall replacements:
Trap Types
Replacement Capsule
Hoffman 17C
TFHF-1409
Warren Webster 712HB
TFWW-2515
Barnes & Jones 134
TBFJ-1007
Barnes & Jones 1/2” Model C
TFBJ-1748
Thought I’d share a pic of the guts:
Warren Webster 712HB
now while I’m waiting on the ordered capsules, would anyone have any idea what type of valve this is? It says Webster on the other side of the handle and I’m assuming there’s a pin that connects the top handle to the valve itself but that is missing.Thanks again everyone!
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That is a vapor valve, it is a special metering type valve and either it can be set to only open a certain amount to match the edr of the radiator it is attached to or I think in warren/webster systems they may have had an orifice that matched the edr of the radiator.
It may be a packless valve that uses a bellows instead of packing to seal the stem.
It looks like the handle is broken off, looks like the bottom left had more attached to it that probably held it in place(some vapor valve used that part to index to a stop that limited how far the valve could open).
Others will know more of the specifics of this particular valve, i am mostly just giving general vapor valve characteristics.
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Thanks @mattmia2 ! It doesn't look broken off to me (I'll get a few more pics) but either way I have some steel dowels on order to see if that can fix it.
I was also wondering, is it okay to use copper anti-seize on the threaded tunstall capsules and the trap covers? I want to make sure I'm not eroding anythign with copper/brass/steel mixing.0 -
You needn't worry too much,Hedwig. I like Megaloc or Teflon Paste on any threads. Very innocuous and will not react with anything. A few wraps of Blue Monster Teflon tape clockwise around the underside of the trap capsules makes a nice seal and enables easy removal in the years ahead.
You should pat yourself on the back for taking this on.
Mad Dog
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Awesome, thanks @Mad Dog_2, I appreciate it. I'm excited to crank the system up and see what we get!
I also got a few better pics of the vapor valve (and the new steel dowel pin I ordered!) as well:
It very well could have broken off, but the bottom of the handle doesn't seem broken or rough. The dowel pin I ordered is sliiightly too small so there is still some play in the handle, but I was able (with a bit of force) to get it to turn, so all in all, progress.
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Great idea about just open the trap (or just loosening to test during operation.
I think you can also test the trap bellows in a double boiler on your kitchen stove.
I've seen traps where the ball at the outlet a stuck in some white deposits. Doesn't take much to make then sticky, so bit of polishing away of that junk can restore operation.
Steward to 1923 Spanish revival near Chicago - 2 pipe steam 650 EDR shiny new Peerless 63-06
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That's called a "lock-shield" valve. And the part you're holding in the pic is the key.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting3 -
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Hey @CoachBoilermaker and everyone, sorry for the radio silence! A couple updates:
Thanks @Steamhead, I was able to get a small metal dowel into the lock-shield key and get the valve open!
I rebuilt 6 of the traps with new Tunstall capsules which was fun (an impact wrench was 100% worthwhile) and now those radiators are heating! We made it through last winter okay, but this winter will be much better.We've got every radiator working except two:
- The baseray (still not getting more than 2 feet of heat even with a rebuilt trap),
- The attic hallway (I think the valve is the problem as I rebuilt that trap).I also built a radiator tracker on Notion (screenshot below) to keep track of all these repairs and issues!
One thing I'm still trying to figure out is how to balance the system (hard with some of the broken valves). Essentially the first floor gets really nice and warm, while the second and third are just "okay." It seems like the upstairs radiators don't stay terribly hot for long, so I'm thinking one option is to replace the old thermostat with an Ecobee and use sensors upstairs as the main temperature reading.
Is there anything else I should be thinking of at this point? Water pH level, cleaning the main vent, anythign to reduce cost of running it, etc? I also need to get a low pressure gauge.
A seriously big thank you to all of you helping me get the system back up and running. This is an exciting adventure!0 -
not reading back through, do all the radiators have traps? might still have a bad trap letting steam in to the return keeping the problem radiators from venting or a runout or part of main with a pocket of water slowing steam progression. could put orifice plates in the too hot radiators in lieu of repairing the valves.
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Yep all radiators have Traps @mattmia2.
I’ll go and double check all the returns on all the radiators to make sure none of them are hotFor the attic radiator I opened the trap while the system was running and heard a faint like, burble or bubbling that would stop when I plugged up the radiator side hole or closed the valve.
If it is a slug of water in the main or return, how does one remove it?
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Just checked and at least two of the radiators that have always been heating have very warm to actually hot return pipes coming off of them. What’s the differential I should be looking for, return more than 10 degrees cooler than the radiator?
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if the radiator is cold and the return is hot, the steam isn't coming from that radiator, it is coming from some other radiator or crossover trap or a water seal that was below the water line with the old boiler but is above the water line now.
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Can you explain what Notion does for you? (Looks like Excel)
Why New thermostat ? Why not just turn up the heat until 2nd floor gets to desired temp?
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the radiator that has the hot return is also hot so I’m assuming it’s the one sending steam into the return. The one that isn’t heating at all has literally no heat in the supply or return.
Once I get the valve on the attic rad that isn’t heating opened up I’ll report back!
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@CoachBoilermaker I’ve been curious about notion for a while and I figured this was a good use case. It’s more of a database than excel (even though that table view I included is just essentially excel). For example I can click into any of those radiators and include a photo, notes, or even create a special page for keeping track of what I’m doing on it.
The thing I really like is that I can use the “priority for repair” property to set up an issues board where I can see what needs to be inspected/repaired/what doesn’t.
Essentially it’s probably overkill but I’m having fun with it!
And I suppose same thing could be said about the new thermostat. I’ve used an Ecobee before and I really like the ease of use from your phone and the stats you can get using something like .
One thing I’ve been thinking about, should I expect my rads to be hot all the time? I read somewhere that with coal, because the fire was always burning, they stayed hot all day. But now with natural gas, I’m guessing it’s more “hot for a bit” then they cool down until the next call for heat?
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they will stay hot for a while after the heat call ends because of the mass of the cast iron but they will cycle on and off with the thermostat, they will just have more residual heat after the call ends than most settings. you set the anticipator on the thermostat to less frequent, longer calls because of that.
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Thermostat is set to a temperature. When it's below that temp, the boiler turns on. Radiators get hot and then cool off after boiler stops bc room has reached target temp. That's it. Everything else is details. Radiator may get full or just half full of heat sections. Etc.
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No they won't be hot all the time. They'll be hot when boiler runs, and a bit after as they chill off. If mild out, or good insulation , you boiler may only run once or twice all day.
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