New Century House with Two Pipe Steam - Questions
Comments
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Does that pipe I asked about go to the supply main or the return? Is it the return coming in to the side of the boiler return trap?
It would make sense that it is supply on top and return in to the side so the steam in from the top can equalize the returns and allow the condensate to return to the boiler. If the sight glass is full it might not be working properly but I don't know how it is supposed to work.
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That's your one vent then.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
As a side note, i like how the beam that breaks up the span of the floor is supported by the window frame.
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More likely the check valves below the return trap are full of crud. Seems like the side pipe should go to the steam supply.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I think the return trap should drain if the pressure is low.
E.g.
With it full like that, it should have kicked off.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
@Hedwig595 is that 3/4 copper feeding that long, long baseboard?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Possibly a Fulton syphon system seeing that supply valve i believe ,i ran into a system w there very early trv type supply valves in a large commercial building in paterson nj pretty much right next to town hall . I also searched but found very little info, the one i had seen had a late 1896 PAF date on the valves . System was a vapor system and quite large if i remember i think it was a 6 story building . That's quite a beauty of a system . Prior to replacement please be sure that a edr is performed and that any new boiler is sized properly also your replacement boiler will most likely need a false water line to replicate the existing boilers water line and a vaporstat otherwise you will have major issues .Water volume of new boiler to old boiler may be a issue calling for a reservoir tank bein a new boiler aside from a light commercial wet base may not never have a decent enough water volume which will cause issue w run time and possible over filling from auto feeder . If the sizing w current gas gun is correct i would chk the system edr and clock your gas meter to see what your input is on the existing burner . If the traps look to be all original the suggestion of up dating the inerts if available would be wise being nothing works forever and they have put there time in . You can start off by removing the cap on the traps and inspecting just to make sure there not just blocked w a century of debris . It would be also wise to have a small compressor and w some low pressure blow through the dry return . I have ran into situations where the dry returns have sagged and over time build up rust and mud from not draining properly and causes a no heat or extremely slow steam distribution to radiators . Upon re pitching and removing debris the radiator heated fine . If you can rig a piece of plastic tubing and once your trap cover is off and element removed you can blow into the dry return there should be zero to none resistance if there is you have a blockage which is part of the issue its a little bit easier then using a air compressor . It usually always take some time to clear and some times pipes have to be removed to replaced but its all part of working w older system. I know that upstate it can be hard to find anyone w a clue on steam even harder on a older two piper the vast majority of those who had a clue are long dead so make sure you got your bs detector set to high sensitivity to sort out any who are just looking for a check and are full of **it .
Thats is quite a beauty of a 2 pipe system which from the looks w the original external portable heat exchanger and the gravity store vessel , It kinda rare to see all original accessories still in place usually some knuckle heads yank them out and butched it up to where it barely works as it was designed .
I will say that the boiler has done its time and for it size and weight and eff a newer boiler properly piped and installed would surely reduce the fuel consumption by a mim of 30 to 40 % just by not heating about 1600 lbs of cast . With that being said run her till she drips and realize that proper replacement is not a one day job unless ya got about 5 guys there then maybe but still plan for the future or plan on moving just some words of slight wisdom . being quality is not performed at break neck speed nor as a drive by its usually well planned out,not the prior
peace and good luck clammy
R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
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So I’m probably going to get some of the terminology wrong here, but I’m assuming the supply main is the “steam” supply to the radiators, and the return is the condensate return line from the radiators.
I think it is connected to the return line. I drew a yellow line showing that pipe, where it connects, and where the return (I think) flows to, which is into a pipe that Ts off into the boiler and the bottom of that black condensate trap/pump. It looks like there is maybe a check valve (highlighted with the yellow square) before that T.
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Thanks for the wisdom @clammy and everyone else walking me through this!! @mattmia2 and @delcrossv especially!! I really appreciate the wisdom and knowledge you all have here and I’m excited to learn to be the caretaker for this system.
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@delcrossv So it’s copper but it looks like it is 5/8. There is 3/4 copper that feeds this pink radiator though. They are both the only radiators with copper pipe (I think) and both in the kitchen.
The long base ray baseboard is still cold (even the supply pipe) but the pink baseboard does get somewhat warm.
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I keep forgetting to look at my copy of TLOSH and see if that return trap is in it but I'm guessing the venting of the returns happens through it. If that is the case and it isn't functioning right then the system isn't going to heat well, likely because no one has opened it up and cleaned it since the eisenhower administration.
I think someone mentioned adding a low pressure gauge. You can tee that in here with the code required gauge although that might not be my top priority, I don't think that pressure is your issue:
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Such a beautiful system. As long as it wasn't leaking I'd tune it by addressing the traps, venting etc..but then again, NG is darn cheap and our winters are short and mild.
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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5/8 OD is 1/2 ID. The supply line isn't sufficient. Uninsulated copper just makes it worse. Is there any pitch toward the trap with the black baseboard?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
It should be black iron but copper vs black iron won't be the reason it doesn't heat. It could cause some more minor problems but it likely will work ok.
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"Return trap " could be confusing as there's two "traps" connected to the dry return: the pump trap (black) and the vent trap (white). So I'm gonna try to be careful with the nomenclature.
Based on this, the pumping trap is just tied to the return. Vent trap is "parallel " with it.
Radiator traps on the non heating rads should be step 1.
Second priority is to open up the white vent trap and get that cleaned out. But until we're sure all the rad traps are working we don't know if that's necessary. It is venting somewhat.
The check valves on the pump trap also need service, but it's lower priority as they're not burning coal and the vaporstat should address the B dimension. Be good to get it working as a backup. It should not just sit there full of condensate.
@Hedwig595 did you blow down your low water cuttoff and bring up your water level?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
@delcrossv I did not do the blowdown yet but will attempt! I'm assuming it goes in this order:
1. Make sure boiler is firing
2. Open blow-down valve (the one under the LWC) and empty about 1 quart of water into a bucket
3. The boiler should shut off because of LWC
4. Close valve, boiler should fire on
5. Open water inlet and bring boiler level back up to marked point in sight glass
Anything I'm missing? Should I do this multiple times, or do a blow down with the water inlet open? I'm sure it hasn't been done in a while.
I also checked and that long base ray baseboard is unfortunately fairly level at the start, and then pitched slightly the wrong way when you get down to the trap. I put a long level at various points to check, but is there a more accurate way?
And just to check, the radiator traps should be addressed in spring after the boiler is cool? I'm assuming waiting for it to cool now would be a bit too long to be without heat.0 -
You could try opening up one trap and taking the element out and run part of a cycle with the trap open and see what happens. If the issue is whatever is venting the returns is not working then the returns should vent through that trap and they should all heat or at least more should heat. If the valve is set up right and the vaporstat is working right it shouldn't let in enough steam to get to the trap, air should vent out the trap but not steam. If steam starts coming from the return that tells you that you either have traps that are leaking by somewhere or that the boiler return trap is trying to equalize the return but it can't build pressure because it is open.
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Your order of operations1-5 for the LWCO is correct. Once a month during the heating season is fine. This spring it should be disassembled and cleaned.
Try @mattmia2 's test with one non heating rad. We can walk you through that. Get a 6 point socket and a long breaker bar for the cap from an auto parts store. You'll also need a large pipe wrench to hold the trap body from moving. Easier with 2 people.
Regarding the baseray, that's close enough. How long is it from end to end?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Im not sure if this has come up yet, but I noticed that you have sad that some radiators are working and some that are not.
You have also mentioned that some of the valves are stuck? And you want to repair them.
My thought… The valves in question might be easily fixed and, in turn (pardon the pun) be either closed so tightly that they are off, getting no steam. The ones that are working might be stuck in the open position back seated.
Might be good to check the "lefty loosie righty tighty ,thing going and turn the valves to the left, opening them? You might get some heat.
If they are stuck and not confused with what's open and closed I would loosen the packing nut on the stem a bit and try turning the valves on to the left. You might get those radiators to heat up. Be safe if you choose to loosen the packing nut. Especially if you're not familiar with this type of valve.
Over time you will be a bit of an expert on your system…knowing more about it than most . Its a very nice system worthy of rehab.
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I think those might be packess valves. The handle position is at least some clue about if they are open or closed. I think they are plug type valves.
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i only looked at the closeup. looking at all the radiator pictures it looks like a mixture. I think hoffman and arco made some more modern vapor valves and i know someone still makes them(although you can actually find nos ones on ebay for less)
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If they are packless plug type true vapour valves, as @mattmia2 suggested and which I am rather inclined to think, they can almost always be freed up. A bit of WD-40 or some such on the shaft (PB Blaster or equivalent if you are very brave — very small quantities) and let it soak in. Then try to move the handle either way — even a little bit at first. It may take more force than you can manage with your hand (at least it does with my hand) but don't get carried away. You don't want to bend or break the handle!
Rinse and repeat. With patience they may free up.
They can also be disassembled, but try to find a diagram of one (many are in the archives here) and understand how they are put together before taking a wrench to them!
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
Blow down complete, and water level is back up! That was easier than I anticipated. The water came out pretty much like dark tea at first but cleared very quickly and the LWC worked as intended. I did notice some "spots" on the sight glass that looked like a film, oil or debris, basically coating the inside of the empty portion of the sight glass and bouncing up and down with the water — anything to address there?
Also the baseray is 16 feet (!!) long.
I'll have to get some tools and plan to try @mattmia2's test with a non-heating rad next week. I'll check in before I do though, thanks!!1 -
Great! Sight glass cleaning is part of annual maintenance. It'll keep for now.
I'm sorry to say that that baseray will never heat. At 16' that's about 54 sq. ft. of steam EDR. You'd need a 1-1/4" feed, which is larger than the tapping on a baseray. There is a reason US Boiler does not recommend baseray installations longer than 10' for steam (and that's pushing it IMO.)
A possibility is to remove it, take out a center section and have 2 feeds from the center and traps on both ends.(a lot of work) Or pull it and get a low window height steam rad with an appropriate sized supply. (less work)
I'd bet you don't need that much EDR in that room (kitchen?)
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I'm sorry to say that that baseray will never heat. At 16' that's about 54 sq. ft. of steam EDR. You'd need a 1-1/4" feed, which is larger than the tapping on a baseray. There is a reason US Boiler does not recommend baseray installations longer than 10' for steam (and that's pushing it IMO.)
Help me understand. 2-pipe radiators much larger than 54 EDR are fed with smaller pipes than 1-1/4", aren't they? Baseray is 3/4" so there surely is a limit, but it can't be that low, can it?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
It will heat, just it may not all get hot. It also may be oversized and the amount that heats will adequately heat the space. When 3/4 of it is heating and it is still cold in there is when to look at doing something about it.
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With a 1/2" copper feed? - maybe a foot? With the biggest supply that will fit, say 1/2 of it. May be enough.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Aww man, that's a shame about the baseray, I do like it — and its heating 1/4 of the way across now. That'll probably be a larger project then.
After adding the water I've been running the boiler and found that now MOST of the radiators are heating!! There are two in the attic, one in the dining room and the baseray that are still cold, so if we take out the baseray, that's 3 radiators that aren't heating - much better than wehere we were a few days ago!
I did notice that at least one trap and return line off of that trap is steam hot, so I'm assuming there's steam in the returns messing up the venting?0 -
US boiler limits steam installs to 10'. Just going by the book. The way it's hooked up now I'm not surprised it doesn't heat.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
@mattmia2 @Jamie Hall @Intplm., here are pictures of the valves I have:
One of these:
Most look like this "squat" mushroom:
Second most often found:
This is on the baseray:
I would say about 3-5 of them actually turn and the rest are stuck, but seemingly stuck open.
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Hmm. Maybe not so bad after all. Is the room comfortable?. Kicking it up to 3/4 iron pipe for the supply may be enough of a solve that you can keep it per @mattmia2
I did notice that at least one trap and return line off of that trap is steam hot, so I'm assuming there's steam in the returns messing up the venting?
Yep. At least that trap element needs replacing. Call Tunstall with the information off the trap body and they'll set you up with the correct element.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Are the ones with the steam hot traps ones with the valves that don't have the plate with the stops on them? I think this is a Hoffman valve and my or may not have a way to set it to limit the steam passing through:
The steam in the returns is likely to keep some of the radiators from heating either from closing the vents on the returns and keeping the radiator from venting or by closing the trap on the radiator from the return side and keeping it from venting that way. The hot trap isn't necessarily the failed trap.
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@Hedwig595 Tunstall does make kits for these.
If you wanted to replace them (and the non-metering Hoffman) Mepco does make regulating valves
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Easy enough the check. Is the return below the suspect trap hot locally to the connection? or is the whole return hot? It is the most likely candidate.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I'm pretty sure it is just hot locally to the connection. The return pipe coming off of that trap was hot but the returns on the other non-heating radiators are cold, and the returns near the main vent are only slightly warm (which I think is just from being in the boiler room).
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Then you likely have a problem with that specific trap.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Or valve depending on how you look at it.
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I agree that the valve setting should take care of the problem. Should. However, it won't unless you either have excellent control of the pressure or you are running the radiator well below capacity.
Back in the day, Hoffman made excellent valves (as did several other companies) but… they also included traps on all Hoffman Equipped systems, because they wanted to be sure that everything not only worked, but kept working.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Point being, fixing the trap will solve that particular issue. Agreed, it's nice when traps don't need to close because of correct metering, but reality sometimes intervenes.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0
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