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Need advice on tankless boilers

Tallmandave1
Tallmandave1 Member Posts: 2

thank you in advance anyone who offers me advice.

I have an older house with more than 6000 ft.² requiring heat. There are many bedrooms and the old system that was in there was a steam boiler. I had to rip it out due to the fact that that majority of the pipes were hanging low in the basement and because a lot of the pipes had decaying asbestos insulation. I also removed the chimney to the house because it was smack in middle of the kitchen. It took up a lot of cabinet space that I so badly needed.
So now I am left with split units that was given to me based on a government grant.

I’ve done some research on the top name tankless boilers that are out there. I’ve noticed that there are a lot of disagreements.
because of my current situation, I think that I don’t have a choice other than installing a tankless spoiler. If someone teaches me how to maintain it properly I’m pretty handy. So what it seems is that majority of the people consider Laars to be a better brand-name as opposed to Navion.

Most currently I heard about another company that one plumber swears by. The name of that company is IBC.
it seems to me that the main issue with all these boilers is that there are not enough technicians that know how to service them. Sometimes the parts seem to be on back order.
Can someone kindly recommend an all-around, good tankless boiler. I definitely have to connect it to an indirect heater for DHW. I’ve been told the best indirect boiler out there is triangle tube. It is made with stainless steel and has a phenomenal warranty.
If I provide pictures and a description, is there anyone who could draw me a schematic of exactly how to Pipe my tankless water boiler , as well as my indirect water heater.

Again, thank you for everyone who has made it so far in reading my post.

Comments

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,048

    Why do you need a tankless boiler?

    ethicalpaulSuperTechGroundUp
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Do you still have the old steam radiators?

    If Yes, are they compatible with a Hot water system?

    How do you propose to connect the radiators to your new boiler?  There are many different designs that will work.  I believe that a parallel piping design with a reverse return is the best choice for an economical design.  You may also want to do home runs back to a central manifold.   Perhaps two or three manifolds for zoning  

    Getting the proper system design is important.  If you get it wrong, you may never get the system balanced properly.  

    And what @Hot_water_fan asked too?


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,590

    You don't want a tankless boiler. They are used to heat domestic hot water and not for heating a building.

    What you want is a MOD CON boiler. Stay away from Navien. Lochinvar, Viessmann, IBC are good and there are others that are good as well. Use and indirect water heater tank.

    Do not use a combi boiler.

    But your getting way ahead of yourself. The boiler selection comes last.

    1. Heat loss of house
    2. size pipe and circulators and design piping system & select boiler

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Adding to @GGross 's awesome comment…. Many steam boilers were installed during the time of the Spanish Flu outbreak. Long story short… The radiators are oversized. If your radiators are oversized for heating the building with 215° steam, they may be the correct size for 165° to 175° water flowing through them for those really cold days. If your radiators can in fact be used on hot water (Some steam only radiators are incompatible with Hot water heating) You may be able to pull this one off. 

    Look at the top of your radiators to see if that are connected so water can pass thru the bottom and the top.

    Some steam radiators do not have the top connection for the water to flow thru.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    GGrossSuperTech
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,815

    Put a new steam boiler back in and put in a freestanding water heater, that's what I'd do.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    GroundUp
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    All the pipe and the chimney are gone Paul. That job is not an option anymore.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ethicalpaul
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    It's what I'd do, too. Assuming that you haven't taken out the existing radiation and the various risers involved — just ripped out the basement piping.

    Otherwise, as others have said, you've gotten way ahead of yourself.

    First, you are essentially putting in a whole new heating system in an existing structure. That's always fun. Start with a room by room heat loss and a total building heat loss. Without that, you're guessing on everything.

    Next, make a choice of heating system. In this case, it sounds as though you are looking for a hot water — hydronic — system. If so, your fundamental choice will be a mod/con boiler (not a tankless water heater — that's a completely different beast). That will inform you on the hottest water you can expect to use on the coldest days which, in turn, will inform you as to what radiators or whatever you use in the various spaces. Size them to provide the room heat loss from Step 1 up there. You may or may not be able to use some of the existing radiators.

    Then decide on how and if you want zoning. This will help design the piping. Since you are going from scratch, I strongly recommend either using "home run" piping wherever possible, or reverse return piping where necessary. That will make it easier to balance and control the system. I would advise against using any of the existing risers from the old system.

    Then, and only then, select a mod/con boiler sized to suit the actual building heat loss as calculated in Step 1. Do NOT be tempted to oversize it. Choosing the manufacturer of the boiler must be based — in order — on three considerations. First, what make or makes is your installer familiar with? Second, what make or makes have parts and service easily available in your area? And last — way last — what is the brand name on the front of the boiler. Installer familiarity and parts and service availability are really important with the newer boilers, as they have to be piped correctly - they are not very forgiving that way — and the controls, which are complex, set up properly, and second they will need parts and service much more than older boilers, never mind steam systems.

    Since you have already taken out the chimney, you will be limited to boilers which can be power vented.

    For domestic hot water, I also agree that an indirect fired by the heating boiler will probably be the most satisfactory. Since you no longer had a chimney, a direct fired oil or gas hot water heater is not an option. A conventional electric tank heater would be another option, depending on your electric rates.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,815

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    Probably not. The OP said something about a government grant, which may prohibit it…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,569
    edited December 18

    One other thing that must be considered here: the steam system ran on less that 2 psi; changing it to hot water will increase the pressure to 10 times that amount. The radiators and piping may not take that much additional pressure without leaking.

    What you should do first is pressurize piping and radiators to see if they hold before proceeding any further.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    SuperTechEdTheHeaterManGGross
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Of Course they can. But at what cost? You need to consider that the person that is asking this question has just spent a ton of $$$ in order to get those pipes and chimney out of the way. Did you actually read the original comment?

    What if someone told you that the best thing for you is to put an oil boiler and a new oil tank back in your home after all you did to get a Gas Steamer? Or better yet tell you to get a coal boiler and convert it to oil heat with a 1940's oil burner …because that is the heat you had and you should go back to that, because it worked before.

    How much thought would you give to that advice?

    Your advice does not even come close to anything the original poster is interested in.

    I understand that is not the same thing. You're better off with your system. And all your research you did and shared, to get where you are is awesome. But consider that your solution will cost over $80,000.00 to put the chimney back, have a steam fitter repipe the basement and connect to the new steam boiler. That is a 6000 Sq Ft building with a lot of radiators to connect. I just don't see that your advice is a cost effective option at this point. 


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    GroundUp
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Seems like all the pipes are gone, at least the basement pipes. If the radiators are still in place, and they can be used for hot water heating, the best systems might be to use PEX to the basement with a reverse return design, or home run design that can be zoned as needed. Each run can then be pressure tested at it gets connected to the radiators.

    BUT FIRST:

    We need @Tallmandave1 to reply with information on what he expects to use for heat emitters. Old original radiators or something new?

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    I agree with @EdTheHeaterMan — although keeping the steam should at least have been considered, it appears it wasn't. There could be a number of reasons for that. Our OP, @Tallmandave1, gave a few — including the comment that a government grant was involved, which can really affect analysis That ship has sailed.

    I believe I gave a reasonably coherent (at least by my standards) set of suggestions as to how to proceed from here.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,815

    geez Ed are you ok today? I just said what I would do. I’m not holding a gun to their head

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529
    edited December 19

    Your home is not 6000 sq ft. Paul! 🤣

    So when are you putting in the oil burner? That's what I would do if I had your home!

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Tallmandave1
    Tallmandave1 Member Posts: 2

    wow! Thank you everyone for your feedback! I see I left behind some info.

    I removed all the old steam pipes AND radiators. I was told that steam is really inefficient and costs more gas to heat a house. I was also told that steam has only 1 zone. I forgot to mention that no-one lives on the second and third floor of this house. the basement is also empty. Should I have left the 100 year old steam system in? I had done a full gut renovation and replaced all the lines including the gas and water. Should I have left the heating system alone?

    I had an average plumber run pex tubing around the entire house for heating. He ran the correct pex made for heat ( not hot water ). There are 4 floors to this house ( basement included). he basically ran one pipe from the basement into the first cast ray radiator ( made by OCS ). The return would go into the next radiator till it would get to the last radiator on that floor before it comes back down to the basement. He basically did this for every floor. so I guess you would call that 4 zones. The first floor has radiant floor pex that I installed under the tiles. the pex pipes overs the kitchen dining room and living room. we also have a ventless gas fireplace that we will be installing. In addition to all of this we have split units in all the rooms in the first floor and basement. we currently live comfortably in the first floor and use the split units that the government so kindly provided us .

    After all the pex pipes were put into place my wonderful plumber became busy and could not come back to finish. I hired another crew to install the cast iron radiators. I used a website to calculate the BTU count of each room since every plumber was giving me a different BTU count per room. The site I used to calculate BTU is called www.bestheating.com. a reliable plumber told me that this is the site he uses to calculate the BTU's.

    ill give an example. This is the size of my master bedroom on the first floor. the floor is vinyl with a heated room below and above. there are 2 exposed walls that are facing the outside.16‘7“ X 12’7“ X 9‘1“ 9(LxWxH)two windows 4‘8“X5‘4“ One Window 1‘5“X5‘4“. The BTU necessary for this room is 4326. The total BTU necessary to heat the house is 98K BTU based on this websites calculation.

    Now comes the fun part. I'm ready next week to install the boiler. I might have used the wrong terminology. I need a boiler with a indirect DHW tank. I was told to install 2 navian 150k btu in a cascade for a high DHW demand. I have 7 full bathrooms with showers. Now is where I need advice. majority of the install guys tell me to go with Navian since it has the most amount of technicians in this area. When I told them that I have heard a lot of complains about avian they all tell me its because the home owner did not properly maintain the units. Please advise where I can go from here. I dot want to install the wrong unit or to put in the wrong system.

    if I did not mention yet I live in the south shore in New York. I am approximately 400 feet from the water.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,590

    Like I said in my first post I understand the old steam piping and radiation are gone.

    Again, your getting ahead of yourself. Do you want a system that will work or always be a problem?

    Do an accurate heat loss

    Pick the water temp you want to run at.

    Lower water temp=less fuel but more radiation=more efficiency=install cost is higher operational cost is less

    Higher water temp =less radiation =less efficiency less install cost operational cost higher.

    If you don't know install a mod con boiler and size everything for 150 degree water max

    If the house needs 98,000 btus use a boiler that size. Why would you put in 300,000 btu worth of boilers?

    So you have 7 bathrooms. How many people in the house?.

    a 98,000 btu boiler will heat a very large indirect water heater probably an 80 gallon tank if you have that many people

    Heat loss

    pick water temp

    size radiation

    size pipe

    size circulator

    Skip a step and it won't work

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    Oh dear. Well, yes you should have kept the steam. There are ways to control the heat indiviudually, room by room, with either one pipe or two pipe. It is very close in efficiency to hot water (typically 84% vs. 90%). And so on.

    But that ship has sailed. You got some bad advice, but that happens to all of us from time to time.

    Now, that said, you have another, potentially very serious problem. You have your radiators installed and piped — but they are piped in series. That means that the first radiator in line will get nice hot water, the next less so, the next less… and the last just warm.

    I'll be blunt. Unless you sized the radiators in each room to account for this, you'll never get satisfactory balance from room to room.

    So the next question is absolutely critical: have you closed up the walls and ceilings, or do you still have access to the piping? If you still have access to run piping, you can fix that, actually rather easily. What you do is run a nice new main line all the way from the inlet to the first radiator on the floor to the last, and connect the inlet to each radiator to that line. Then you run another nice new line from the outlet of the first radiator, all the way to your existing outlet back to the basement, and connect the outlet of each radiator to that line. That gives you what is called a reverse return system, and that will give you very even balance from room to room with very little effort — and, down the line, if you want to, you can even install individual controls for each room.

    If you have closed things up and can't run the new piping, you'll have to live with it, and I'm sorry.

    The best boiler to pick is the one the folks you are working with are most familiar. Navien is a bit peskier than some others — but it is far more important that the folks installing the boiler and commissioning it are familiar with it and have that experience — and have the skill and the parts to maintain it.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England