1 steam boiler, 3 family house, 1st floor has thermostat, gas on house meter. Help.
I recently purchased a 3 family house in Northern NJ as an investment property.
Basement has a 5 year old Weil-McLain NG boiler that I have spent time sorting out (skimming, blow-down, auto water feed, insulation) and it is working well.
The lease with the 1st floor tenants specifies that they control and pay for heat.
1st floor has 5 radiators, 2nd floor 3 radiators and 3rd floor 1 radiator with supplemental electric baseboard heat.
I mistakenly thought the gas supply was on the 1st floor meter, then realized it was on my house meter. This was discussed with the 1st floor tenants and we agreed that when the utility bill arrives, I will send a pic and they will pay for the natural gas portion.
The thermostat is a 7 day programmable, that I programmed to meet the NJ minimum requirements of 64 & 68 degrees and if they manually override the setting it reverts back in 15 minutes.
Well the day arrived and I forwarded the bill, and the gas portion was $211 for November into early December. It hasn't been that cold yet, and since I'm not there every day, I'm unsure how much heat they are using.
I realize this is a recipe for disaster. I'm trying to be as fair as possible, and the tenants did agree to pay for heat, so….
What's the answer besides plumbing in the gas supply to 1st floor meter and or adding a second boiler for 2/3 rd floors?
Comments
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How do you know how much of your bill was for heat?
I really don’t see any other way of fixing it other than re-piping the boiler to their meter.
And I don’t understand how that can be a reasonable contract when they’re paying for heating the entire building.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.2 -
Does their lease say they pay for heat for the other apartments? The fair thing to do is to add additional boilers or pay it yourself and renegotiate the rents to cover the average costs. Just as much as you don't want to be on the hook for someone else's high heating bills, I'm sure the first floor tenants don't either.
But I get the sense you don't actually want to do it the fair way, but the most profitable way. In that case, the only option is to get the boiler moved to their meter.
In the long run having separate boilers will be better in the long run, you'll have less problems with tenant turnover, and the apartments will be more marketable. If those first floor tenants ever move out, you'll have a hard time finding someone else willing to take that deal.
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Well, it seems to my simple mind that if the first floor tenants control the operation of the gas boiler, they should pay for the gas — one way or another (either in the rent or directly, with the latter preferable). The amount quoted does not seem to me to be out of line, although I'm sure they think so.
However. That leaves the heat from the second and third floor tenants at the mercy of the whims of the first floor tenant — and that could be a problem. In the longer term, I think that what I would at least consider is installing two mini-splits, one for each floor, powered off their respective electric meters, with the interior heads strategically placed. This would allow those two units to control their own temperature more closely —and give you the advantage of advertising that they had a/c in the summer.
Now is this really fair to the first floor tenant? No, it really isn't, since if they run their flat warm,, so that the other two don't need the extra, they are effectively paying for the heat for the other two. One way around that would be that they get a mini-split as well
You would then take the gas bill for the boiler — but keep it as doing the heavy lifting in really cold weather.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
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If I was paying for the gas, I'd want to be in control of the thermostat
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el2 -
Confirmation that 1st floor controls thermostat and agreed in writing to pay heating bill.
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But they don't control it. You made it go back to 68 in 15 minutes, and 64 (at night I guess)
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
With shared heat like this, I have split the gas bill based on sqft. In your case might make more sense to split by rad area as the 3rd floor has just a single rad.
If the electricity is sub metered, usually the best option is a mix of the above suggestion.
Add a single wallmount mini split to each unit in the main space and resistance baseboard heat for all the rooms. With doors open, the mini split can supply the bulk of the heat for the place. This is a very common setup for basement ADUs around me and pretty cheap way to heat and cool. You can also retire the boiler and get back the space the rads take up.
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"With shared heat like this, I have split the gas bill based on sqft. In your case might make more sense to split by rad area as the 3rd floor has just a single rad."
As a homeowner I like the idea to ratio the bill based on radiator area, as it's based on simple math that's objectively fair and easily understood by the renters.
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But with electric rates so high, it's likely those mini-splits/electric baseboards will make the apartments' utility bills too expensive for tenants to afford. ISTR reading about buildings in Boston where this happened.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
2 bed plus den all electric unit with heat pump. Last year January (north edge of zone 5) power use of 760kWh. That includes space heat.
With multi family, each unit is supplying part of the overall heat as each place has only a few exterior walls. Of course with an old leaky uninsulated structure this can add up, but anything code min, the costs are not that high.
Even if each unit has its own gas service/heat, there is typically meter fees that are in the range of $350/year, so not really that much cheaper.
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Well, we've run into this here, when a boiler died and they had to use heat pumps. The bills skyrocketed. I'm sure in North Jersey it's worse. You must live where electric rates are rather low.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
"The lease with the 1st floor tenants specifies that they control and pay for heat."
If you are going to hold your tenant to this lease by making them pay for your houses gas bill then you need to take the setting lock off the thermostat. By your own admission your thermostat settings reverting back after 15 minutes means the tenant is NOT in control of the heat. Be fair to your tenant and charge what you need to charge and you may just have long standing, well mannered, and timely paying tenants. Split the gas meters or change how you charge for heat in the future because this becomes a huge mess when you are essentially making your tenants pay your gas bill too
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What are the laws in NJ regarding split/shared meters(if there are any)? In my 2 flat in Wisconsin, with only 1 boiler and 1 gas meter, we just averaged the yearly gas cost and build that into the rent and hope we get it right. In my mind, that's really the only reasonably fair way to do it. Having an investment property isn't all printing money.
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Forget the third floor and disconnect and cap the third-floor radiator and install more electric basebord if needed.
You can't put in a boiler for one small radiator.
Have the 2d and 1st floor split the gas bill evenly. You can put in two thermostats located anywhere (a locked closet) with remote sensors in each apartment. Set the thermostats for the same temperature and wire them both to the same boiler.
If one apartment overheats you can slow the venting in that apartment or install a TRV
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