Vacuum Breaker One Pipe Steam
I have read through a lot of discussions on here and love the takes I have read and also enjoyed Dan's books. Despite my new found knowledge I have run into some problems in my new home. There is one radiator on the 2nd floor that does not heat up. When the boiler runs, water appears to get trapped in the riser. I know this because I hear the sloshing in the vertical pipe, and if it goes on too long, the sight glass at the boiler drops to the point that the low water cutoff kicks in. Once the boiler is off, all of the water returns.
The only thing that fixes the problem, is removing the main vent (gorton #2). With the vent out, air flows in and out along with some exiting steam, but all radiators quietly heat up. This of course is not a real solution as the system needs to be closed so that steam isn't leaking and the .5-1.5 psi of pressure can build. The temporary solution makes me think that potentially a vacuum is occurring that is causing the condensate to get stuck leading to some water hammering and the upstairs radiator being unable to fill with steam. In this situation, will a vacuum breaker installed into a new T along with the Gorton 2 work? Would adding a vent tree to include additional main vents be another viable solution? I added photos of the radiator, boiler and vent as well. The rust stain is from a plumbing drain line break and is unrelated to the steam system.
Thanks for the help!
Comments
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Can you blow through the vent with your mouth? Maybe just need a new one there?
THINK
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You don't need pressure — so that's not a problem.
Does steam reach the vent in question in the normal operation? It is quite possible that somewhere condensate is building in that piping. Have you checked all the more or less horizontal bits of piping doesn't drain properly — that would do it.
(off topic — it's a wonder it works at all… the near boiler piping is… um… unusual?)
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
where does the steam supply go through your chimney? Or the wall, can quite tell. The pipe off the equalizer
THINK
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The vent is new. I replaced as of this week. I replaced an old one that was rusted on there pretty good and even cleaning did not help clear it. Yes, from what I have read, the near piping is definitely unusual. When running with the system closed, the steam makes it to the elbow from the riser to the radiator but typically does not get any further before the condensate gets trapped. I checked the pitch of all the horizontal lines and they seem to be good. The supply to the radiator in question is the one directly above and parallel to the exhaust flue. It runs through the wall and around the perimeter of the ground floor of the house to one large radiator in the living room and one smaller one in the kitchen. The radiator on the second is the last one on this line and is the only one with issues heating.
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I think that is a return/main extension.
I'm not sure that angle radiator valve on its side like that will let the condensate out of the radiator. If you loosen that union with a pan under it, does a bunch of water come out?
Unless i'm missing something the near boiler piping doesn't look too bad, not sure if the riser out of the side of the boiler is the minimum size from the manual or if you need to use both with that model.
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»I'm not sure that angle radiator valve on its side like that will let the condensate out of the radiator.«
I was thinking the same. How to fix? Elevate the radiator?
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use a full port ball valve and a radiator nipple or ell. but break the union and see if it is full of water first.
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Haven't tried it this way but I was concerned about this too. I tried to tilt the setup by putting washers underneath the leg but it didn't really do anything. I will try that tomorrow and report back.
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Hello echevez,
Where do you hear the sloshing, in the wall, at the valve or in the radiator ?
Your sight glass looks horrible is your water dirty or contaminated ?
How many mains do you have 1 or 2, parallel flow or counter flow ? Mains feed multiple radiators.
Gorton #2 should not block a vacuum.
I would have that Gorton #2 higher up and maybe also offset horizontally a bit.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
It's nothing to do with vacuum. It sounds like (as others have indicated) an unintentional water trap (sag) in the radiator's runout pipe.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
The sloshing is in the wall so the vertical riser to the radiator in question.
Yes the water is dirty but not contaminated to my knowledge. I flushed the water when the heating season started because it looked worse and was a darker brown. The fresh water came back this color after it ran a couple of times. Will definitely prioritize getting the water to a better place for longevity once I figure this issue out.
There are two mains with three radiators on each. There is a small return pipe at the end of each main that slopes back to the boiler which made me think it is parallel. But I also hear a drip when the boiler is running at the mains which I know is common for counterflow. I'll need to get into my crawl space for a better look to 100% confirm based on slope of the mains.
Agreed about the gorton 2 positioning. I'm planning on doing exactly that for ease of access.
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If your bad water is surging (basically boiling over out of the boiler into the mains) that could be the issue. But beware of where you are hearing the noise…it can telegraph around the system.
Water doesn't really stay in a vertical supply pipe, it tends to run down to the flat parts.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
It could be steam coming up that riser, hitting the water in the radiator, collapsing, and sucking the trapped water out of the radiator.
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Neither vacuum nor pressure can hold water in a radiator. The pressure is equal in the pipe, in the radiator and in the boiler. Barring a closed or broken valve, it will flow out regardless of the pressure there.
There is some belief for some reason that vacuum in a radiator can hold the water in there, but that is completely false. Sorry for the strong language, but it's just the facts.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
I guess I'm puzzled why there is only one main vent, seems like there should be two, one for each Main. Also puzzled by the removal of a normal functioning Main vent temporally resolving the sloshing issue. Which Main has the Gorton #2 ? I'd check the pitch of the Main with the problematic radiator carefully.
Does Main # 2 have the problematic radiator ?
It appears the Header is smaller after Main #1 so the water would have to drain counter-flow in that area.
Is Main #1 return below the boiler's water line ? (2nd picture). If both Mains vent through the same Main vent the air bleeding from the mains may be uneven causing issues.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Does the Gordon No.2 rattle like a cowbell when you tap it? If it doesn’t make any noise you may have a defective one.
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The way you identified the mains, the gorton 2 is at the main 2 return above the water line before elbowing down to the main 1 return. They meet at the lower point and run to the boiler below the water line. The problematic radiator is on main 2. I agree I would have thought that venting would be needed on both mains as well but apparently everything worked fine before I moved in last year. The gorton 2 definitely works via rattle and blow testing it so I am at a loss as to why removing it and leaving that spot open to atmosphere fixes the problems.
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The sideways radiator valve is probably trapping water. They are not designed to drain in that position.
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Problem with vs without the main vent is perplexing but if you basically have a water carryover problem from the boiler it is conceivable that at least when pipes are warm the problem is exacerbated (more water carryover into the main #2) by faster traveling steam with the main vent functioning.
Can you also provide a picture of the near boiler piping more from the right hand side of the boiler. As @109A_5 pointed out if that header is reducing on the horizontal that cold be part of the water issue.
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If the "returns" are really main extensions and they connect above the water line it could all vent through one vent though one of the mains is going o reach that vent first and close it so some of the other 2 mains will have to vent through the radiators.
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Right side photos attached. I also included a photo of where main 1 drops down to return to the boiler. It looks like there may have been a vent there at some point that got plugged. When I get back from work today I'll try to take off the problem radiator to see if there is water in that valve. Also, the returns are just main extensions I believe. They drop down after the riser to the last radiator on the line and then return to the boiler below the water line.
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This should be a main vent and if the horizontal pipe below it is below the water line it is a wet return.
Are you sure this is below the water line ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
^^^ Yes, this is a key question. Why those Dead Men wanted to run returns at these intermediate heights is completely beyond me. I have been to 3 people's homes who had this. One was banging and two were closing the other main's vent prematurely.
I get it, the water line was higher back then with the old boilers, but this was just asking for trouble.
PS: @Jamie Hall does this qualify as a return, or is it still the main? 😉
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
If is connected to the main at the upper end of that vertical, it's still a main — and the risk there is that the horizontal pipe was almost certainly intended to be a wet return, and if it is at or above the new water line it is now trying to get steam into it… then water into it back from the boiler… then steam (whang)… then water (whag again)… then… merry little percussion section there.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
That specific portion is not but it slopes down into the boiler room and then elbows along the back wall sloping all the way down to below the water line before it gets back to the boiler.
I'll see about replacing that plug with a new vent. I have no clue how this all worked last year before I moved in.
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The basement may have been dug deeper at some point so the returns were once near the floor.
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That sloping pipe is going to give trouble, no matter what else happens. Rerun it so that it is solidly and continuously below the water line, or solidly and continuously above the water line, sloped to drain to a proper drip to something. If it's above the water line, it will have steam in it…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
I bet not but yeah maybe. As I said, I've seen three basements with these "middle" returns in just the last couple months
If it's above the water line, it will have steam in it…
But only if there is a vent or trap after it and before it hits water, right?
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Hello echevez,
Well that does not look like any pipe plug i have ever seen, I believe it is an old dilapidated main vent.
My only return is similar to yours, with the present boiler only about half of the the horizontal run is full of water, checked it with a hose water level. I have had no problem with it, I only have one Main. I have a hard time believing that the non-flooded part has much steam in it. Mine never gets that hot and what mechanism is there to push the air out ? I think the only steam that gets into the top of the vertical pipe is due to the Steam pressure pushing on (compressing) the air in the pipe, which in my case is only 2" WC.
Anyway if your Main #2 section of the house seems to work fine with the vent removed, maybe you just need more venting. However maybe with the vent removed (less flow restriction) the steam is able to push through a low spot where some condensate is puddling.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Finally broke the union today, there was minimal water in there. In fact there was more in the radiator by far. Maybe like a bottle caps worth in the valve.
I ended up adding some more venting. I put in a gorton 1 on Main 1 where the old dilapidated vent was and an additional gorton 1 along with the gorton 2 on the main 2 line before it drops down for the condensate return. The radiators definitely heat up faster now and the problematic radiator gets hot to the 3rd section or so before all the other vents start hissing and the noises start. Maybe I just need more venting but at this point I'm not sure
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" and the noises start "
Steam heat should be virtually silent, I suspect you still have water puddled where it should not be. Pipe pitch.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Yeah I'll need to do a more thorough measurement of the pitch in the crawlspace to see if the issue is there. I don't see any problems anywhere else.
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what do you mean by "water in the radiator"? that is where the valve will trap water if it is going to trap water. how much water was in the radiator?
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This is a shot of inside the valve. When I lifted the radiator, there was probably about 1/4 cup of water that spilled out. Nothing spilled when I broke the union aside from a few drops, had to lift the opposite end to get the water out.
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1/4 cup is minimal. The problem isn't there.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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To anyone still following, I may have found the culprit. I had the kitchen floors redone above this area and it looks like they may have removed the pipe strap here. We also had a leak down pipe from there and when I lifted this end, water went back to the boiler enough to raise the sight glass about an inch. I'm going to elevate it and hope we fix it.
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That would do it…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Excellent find, should be an easy, inexpensive repair. Visual inspection for the win !!!
With the white goop on the broken end or detached part of the strap, the strap failure may have preceded the floor repair. No white goop on the new floor wood or on the floor joist where the strap once was.
After the strap failed, the pipe may have been slowly sagging over time as more water helped to weigh it down.
Maybe add a few extra straps for redundancy, so it never happens again, inspect the other straps.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0
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