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Boiler return trap question- 2 pipe system.

delcrossv
delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241
edited November 19 in Strictly Steam

Would an inverted bucket trap work to replace the old time two valve boiler return trap to get condensate back to the boiler?

If not, what's the modern equivalent (and please don't say "condensate pump" 😉)

Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.

Comments

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241

    C'mon!

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,319
    edited November 15

    Stupid question, as you have said you have a one pipe system, why do you need all this?

    delcrossv
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,283

    No. A bucket trap is just a trap. A boiler returns trap uses steam pressure to pump the water back into the boiler against steam pressure along with the weight of the water.

    The only two thing that can replace it is a, ……………………….YUP condensate pump or a steam power pump or some MFGs make pumping traps. They all cost $$$$$$

    Watson McDaniel is one MFG that makes pumping traps

    delcrossvmattmia2
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,011
    edited November 15

    Boiler return traps were needed due to the difficulty of controlling a coal fire. A gas or oil fired steam system with a correctly set and functioning pressuretrol or vaporstat should not need a boiler return trap. The gravity head of condensate in the returns will put it back into the boiler.

    Update: comments below about lack of steam pressure on the returns in a two pipe system are well taken. Gravity head only to put the condensate back in the boiler… If you have the height. D'oh!

    —
    Bburd
    clammydelcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1820256#Comment_1820256

    Work on more than one system @leonz .

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    ethicalpaul
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,283

    With two pipe there is no steam pressure in the returns to help push the water back. If there is enough room for condensate to stack you don't need a return trap. But if there is one installed you probably need something to help the condensate return.

    The dead men didn't install them for no reason.

    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241
    edited November 15
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1820367#Comment_1820367

    So a pumping trap is the modern replacement? Seems so, as the connections are similar.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,433

    The dead men didn't install them for no reason.

    I'm not so sure of that

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1820379#Comment_1820379

    Don't have enough headroom for gravity feed. It's there for a reason.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    bburd
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,433

    I will ask for a pardon of my skepticism as I was also told that without doubt, the A dimension is important for one pipe steam, and I showed it to be completely irrelevant.

    I wish I had a 2 pipe system because I have the same skeptical feeling.

    We know lots of dead people installed condensate pumps and check valves for no good reason, for example.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241

    Fair enough,my friend. In this case, I'll probably need mechanical assistance.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    bburd
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241
    edited November 19

    So, in measuring this out, the pumping trap converts the B dimension (zero pressure on return), into an A dimension (given I'm supplying boiler pressure to the trap). That much height I have. Thanks!

    And the small Armstrong one is only semi-outrageously priced! 😲

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 10,754

    Another option is to have a water loop that allows steam in to the return if the differential between the supply and the return exceeds the height of the water column. This will add pressure to the return and vent pressure from the main to equalize them enough for the condensate to return to the boiler. This only works if the only vent is near the water loop so that the steam can close it.

    delcrossv
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,283

    @delcrossv Pumping traps are $$$$.

    But you will find anything Armstrong makes is good quality, but way overpriced IMHO

    delcrossv
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,283

    In a 2 pipe system with NP in the returns and the boiler running at 1 psi the water level in the return would have to rise 28" to start to enter the boiler

    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,241
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1821156#Comment_1821156

    Seems they're all pricy. State has them half off for some reason. Any less overpriced brands I can look at?

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.

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