Boiler return trap question- 2 pipe system.
Would an inverted bucket trap work to replace the old time two valve boiler return trap to get condensate back to the boiler?
If not, what's the modern equivalent (and please don't say "condensate pump" 😉)
Comments
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C'mon!
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Stupid question, as you have said you have a one pipe system, why do you need all this?
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No. A bucket trap is just a trap. A boiler returns trap uses steam pressure to pump the water back into the boiler against steam pressure along with the weight of the water.
The only two thing that can replace it is a, ……………………….YUP condensate pump or a steam power pump or some MFGs make pumping traps. They all cost $$$$$$
Watson McDaniel is one MFG that makes pumping traps
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Boiler return traps were needed due to the difficulty of controlling a coal fire. A gas or oil fired steam system with a correctly set and functioning pressuretrol or vaporstat should not need a boiler return trap. The gravity head of condensate in the returns will put it back into the boiler.
Update: comments below about lack of steam pressure on the returns in a two pipe system are well taken. Gravity head only to put the condensate back in the boiler… If you have the height. D'oh!—
Bburd
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With two pipe there is no steam pressure in the returns to help push the water back. If there is enough room for condensate to stack you don't need a return trap. But if there is one installed you probably need something to help the condensate return.
The dead men didn't install them for no reason.
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So a pumping trap is the modern replacement? Seems so, as the connections are similar.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
The dead men didn't install them for no reason.
I'm not so sure of that
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Don't have enough headroom for gravity feed. It's there for a reason.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
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I will ask for a pardon of my skepticism as I was also told that without doubt, the A dimension is important for one pipe steam, and I showed it to be completely irrelevant.
I wish I had a 2 pipe system because I have the same skeptical feeling.
We know lots of dead people installed condensate pumps and check valves for no good reason, for example.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Fair enough,my friend. In this case, I'll probably need mechanical assistance.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
So, in measuring this out, the pumping trap converts the B dimension (zero pressure on return), into an A dimension (given I'm supplying boiler pressure to the trap). That much height I have. Thanks!
And the small Armstrong one is only semi-outrageously priced! 😲
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Another option is to have a water loop that allows steam in to the return if the differential between the supply and the return exceeds the height of the water column. This will add pressure to the return and vent pressure from the main to equalize them enough for the condensate to return to the boiler. This only works if the only vent is near the water loop so that the steam can close it.
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@delcrossv Pumping traps are $$$$.
But you will find anything Armstrong makes is good quality, but way overpriced IMHO
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In a 2 pipe system with NP in the returns and the boiler running at 1 psi the water level in the return would have to rise 28" to start to enter the boiler
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Seems they're all pricy. State has them half off for some reason. Any less overpriced brands I can look at?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Just call it a Hoffman Differential Loop. Since that is what a Hoffman Differential Loop is…
Note that the HDL incorporates the main vent — the ONLY main vent on the system — at the dry return where it enters the HDL. Otherwise it won't work.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
Someone, possibly @Jamie Hall explained it to me about a year ago, if you find that thread you should understand what you have to do.
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I get alternately pressurizing the return (this is on the "high side")
This does not look like a simple piping arrangement that I could cobble together.😮
At least a pumping trap is "plug and play"
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0
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The diagram in the comment below is the fancy one piece more or less design of one of the models. Patented. It doesn't have to look exactly like that.
What is needed is as follows (and it's simple). I can't do drawings, so patience. And I'll say left and right, but you can mirror image…
OK. Take a horizontal line from the boiler header or the steam main (doesn't matter). Perhaps 1 inch or inch and a half? (all pipe the same size as dry return). Head over towards the dry return(s). At some convenient distance from the header or steam main, put on a 90 degree elbow pointed down. Thread on an eighteen inch length of pipe. At the bottom a 90 degree elbow back horizontal to the right, a close nipple, and a 90 degree elbow up. Now thread on a 12 inch length of pipe. At the top of that, thread on a T with the leg of the T pointed to the left. Now. On the other end (top end of the cross bar) a nipple long enough to reach the dry return elevation. At the top of that, a 90 degree left, a close nipple, and again a T with the leg up. The other end of that T connects to the dry return. Put a nipple on the leg and mount the main vent at the top of that nipple. Going back to that first T, connect from there down to the wet return or Hartford Loop…
On initial startup it will be a little weird, but vary quickly what will happen is condensate from the dry return will drop down that left hand pipe. Since there is no pressure on startup or very little, that will form a pool in the U bend arrangement you have just made, and will fill up to the second T going over and down to the wet return. It will stand almost as high in the right hand leg. As the boiler pressure increases, it will push down on the right hand leg, and the pressure will be balanced by the difference in height of water in the two legs. If the pressure gets too high, though, the steam will escape around the bottom of the U bend and bubble merrily up the left hand leg. This will close the vent — and since that is the only vent on the system, will almost immediately pressurize the dry return to the same level as the steam main. Steam circulation will almost cease. As condensation occurs, though, in the dry return and the radiators, the pressure in there (but not the steam main) will drop enough for the water seal to reform itself and the vent — now there is no steam — will reopen, further reducing pressure. Steam circulation will start again. If the boiler pressure is still high, though, the cycle will repeat.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1
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Yeah. That's it. The length of the leg on the left between the bottom U bend and the T going to the Hartford Loop will determine the pressure it will trip at. Fourteen inches would be 8 ounces differential pressure.
Thank you!
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Thank you @Jamie Hall !!
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0
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