Sanitary sewer pipe thru box culvert?
Hello HeatingHelp.com community! : )
I need to cross-under a four lane state highway to get to the township's gravity sewer main on the other side.
In lieu of pneumatic tunnel boring …….. the ideal point of cross-under is at an existing state owned box culvert with a low flow stream running thru it (see pic).
Its a 5ft high x 12ft wide box culvert with a 100 year flood design size.
Is it ever permitted to run a sanitary sewer pipe (2" HDPE forced lateral) thru a box culvert of this type? The 2" pipe would be attached to the ceiling of the culvert.
The entire 2" pipe from end to end will gravity drain itself after pumping (no standing water in the pipe anywhere exposed to cold weather.
….. thoughts on this?
Thanks!
Comments
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No Rick, you cannot do it legally.
The DEP and EPA would skewer you if they trace it back to you.
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Hi Leonz!
Thanks!
…… do you know where would I find that in their code books?
Running this 2" pipe across the ceiling of the colvert allows me to transverse the steam without having to do an inverted loop under the stream bed.
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it is to prevent contamination of the waterway if the sanitary sewer pipe leaks
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The only official rejection i've read so far, its prohibited to have the sewer main pipe across the open entrance or exit area of the culvert, as this effectively reduces the height of the culvert and can catch tree branches, etc.
….. I would be running down the length of the colvert (with essentially no obstructions).
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This is something DPW or DOT engineers should be advising you on. Wasnt it in the bid specs? Mad Dog
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It's done. But this isn't a matter of some Code or other. You don't own the culvert — the State does. I would imagine that you might be able to negotiate with the State Highway Department to purchase an easement through the culvert. You, of course, would then be responsible for any damage to the culvert and, very likely, all repairs and maintenance, and quite likely the resulting damage from any blockage or reduction in flow in, for instance, a flood.
As well as, of course, any harm to the stream should your pipe break or leak and cause pollution or contamination.
As part of your initial application for purchase of the easement, you would also have to show that your activities would not in any way harm the culvert or reduce the flow, have any impact on the stream, nor any impact on the highway.
And you would have to provide liability insurance covering all that.
You got the money to do all that? I'd suggest a bond of somewhere in the mid seven figures to start, and a couple of million up front for the studies, and an eight figure liability coverage might do…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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………… I think i'll just put in a couple of "port-o-potties" : )
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Hello Rick, is this more spring water that you need to get rid of? Did you ever contact the gentleman I suggested that you talk to about your massive amounts of water and shipping it out by tank carloads?
Piping under roads usually requires a larger diameter casing pipe that is driven or bored through and then grouted in place unless it is a deep burial with the pipe not crossing under roads or rail lines.
Horizontal directional drilling would use drilling mud from point A to point B and the drill string is then attached to the HDPE and then pulled back through the hole leaving the drilling mud grout mixture in place and then letting the ground settle around the HDPE pipe.
This is going to involve the town, Penn DOT and the EPA as it is a water course even though it has a seasonal variable flow and volume.
You need to start with trenchless magazine asking them for a couple of back issues then PENNDOT as they have the right of way and 20-40 feet beyond the road width on both sides by the hotel to see if their regulations would allow an unprotected/encased HDPE 2 inch force sewer would be permitted.
Trenchless Magazine main desk 1-330-467-7588
Securing a permit from PENNDOT for a 2 inch sanitary sewer line encased in a larger HDPE casing pipe for 200+ feet of drilling for this may be simpler as your reception pit would be right at the point where the 3 inch HDPE casing pipe would be pulled first and then the 2" pipe would be pulled to meet the sewer and then connected with a saddle clamp if there is room for a small HDD rig.
You need to start with PENNDOT and go from there as they have jurisdiction, and they own the rights of way on both sides of the road.
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Are they new installations? Old installations that are leaking in so many places that it is almost impossible to fix is the reason it is no longer allowed.
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……… pondering!
I put in a box culvert many years ago to cross a stream to reach an isolated residential land plot. The bottom floor of the culvert was left as bare concrete (I took this project on as I have never did one before! : )
The culvert was 30 tons! The crane was massive and cost $2,500.00 for the 30 minutes he was there. He said I could put my hand under the culvert as he lowered it down to the sand bed as it would only be 11 PSF to my hand. : )
Was an interesting project indeed!
I bring this up because, looking at the picture I posted of the colvert, I thought, look at all the rocks that got washed into this culvert's floor : (
I didn't know that those rocks were put in there intentionally! …… they emulate the natural stream bed as it was before the culvert existed.
Now knowing this ……..I'll bet I'll be allowed to bury my 2" pipe within this stream bed as is done throughout the township in this area.
…….. thoughts on this?
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@Leonz:
No ……. this is a new project im dealing with in another county.
Where normally the street mains run "in the street" ….. this street (4 lane highway) is surrounded by large flood zones.
The homes are groups of cul-de-sacs located around 1,000 ft away from this main highway.
So the sewer mains trace the path of the cul-de-sacs back to a central pump station crossing the streams in many areas and is then forced mained up and out to over the hills to other pipe networks.
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The state OWNS that Cul-d-sac. You need their permeation to run anything in it. I doubt they'll allow it but no harm in asking.
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"Now knowing this ……..I'll bet I'll be allowed to
burymy 2" pipe within thisstream bedas is done throughout the township in this area.…….. thoughts on this?"
Fuggedaboutit.
Even if you could get permission — highly unlikely — you don't want the liability
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
You mentioned the Township has a gravity line under the road already?
Could you just pump your line into that one?
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Jamie …. Jamie! this stuff is not for the faint of heart! : )
Think about it! …… this method mirrors the practices of the township itself.
My proposal then becomes to cross this stream via embedding it under the stream bed only!
Doesn't even attach itself to the culvert! simply lays within the stream bed (as is done all over this area).
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True. Your scheme is similar to the practices of various government agencies. None of which would be fool enough to lay a pipe in the bed of a culvert, even if their engineers suggested it (which they wouldn't). Across a stream, suitably buried and protected from damage, yes, when necessary. Along a stream bank — sometimes, with protection. In a stream? Hasn't been permitted in decades — and such installations are being removed as fast as budgets allow.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Agreed! …….. the area with its terrible topography is certainly candidate for "special" allowances by the township to obtaining public sewer connections.
I'm sure as the township develops their sewer network to our side they will have us tie in without the need to cross the streams.
(Hey! Ghostbusters!! : )
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the government doesn’t have to follow the same rules as the public.
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I guess that means NO!
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No …….. simply indicating how I would have to cross the stream.
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To track (locate underground) a buried plastic pipe, i'm assuming the trace wire needs to be insulated wire and one end accessible at ground level to attach a trace signal injector.
….. anyone know?
thanks!
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not sure the trace would need to be insulated, just conductive, but, ok, insulated, so if it crosses other conductivities it doesn't cross talk,
known to beat dead horses0 -
….. good point! Thanks! : )
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From the PA DEP regulations:
Sewers in Relation to Streams27.
Location of Sewers in Streams - The top of all sewers entering or crossing streams shall be at a sufficient depth below the natural bottom of the stream bed to protect the sewer line. In general, one foot of cover should be provided where the sewer is located in rock and three feet of cover (including concrete encasement) in other material; in major streams, more than three feet of cover may be required. Less cover will be considered only if the proposed sewer crossing will not interfere with future improvements to the stream channel. Reasons for requesting less cover should be given in the application. In paved channels, the top of the sewer line should be placed below the bottom of the channel pavement. Sewer outfalls, headwalls, manholes, gateboxes or other structures shall be so located that they do not interfere with the free discharge of flood flows of the stream. Sewers located along streams shall be located outside of the streambed and sufficiently removed therefrom to provide for future possible stream widening and to prevent pollution by siltation during construction.27.2 Construction - Sewers entering or crossing streams shall be constructed of cast or ductile iron pipe with mechanical joints or concrete encasement around other types of pipes so that they will remain watertight and free from changes in alignment or grade. Sewer systems shall be designed to minimize the number of stream crossings. The stream crossings shall be designed to cross the stream as nearly perpendicular to the stream flow as possible. The construction methods that will minimize siltation shall be employed. Upon completion of construction, the stream shall be returned as near as possible to its original condition. The stream banks shall be seeded, planted or other erosion prevention methods employed to prevent erosion. The consulting engineer shall specify the specific method or methods to be employed in the construction of the sewers in or near the stream to control siltation.27.3 Siltation and Erosion Control - During construction of sewerage projects, the contractor shall be prohibited by clauses in the specifications from unnecessary disturbing or uprooting trees and vegetation along the stream bank and in the vicinity of the stream, dumping of soil and debris into streams and/or on banks of streams, changing course of the stream without encroachment permit, leaving cofferdams in streams, leaving temporary stream crossings for equipment, operating equipment in the stream, or pumping silt-laden water into the stream.27.4 Inverted Siphons - Inverted siphons should have two or more barrels, with a minimum pipe size of six inches, and shall be provided with necessary appurtenances for convenient flushing maintenance; the manholes shall have adequate clearance for rodding; and in general, sufficient head shall be provided and pipe sizes selected to secure velocities of at least three feet per second at maximum monthly average flows conveyed by the sewers. The inlet and outlet details shall be arranged so that the normal flow is diverted to one barrel, so that either barrel may be cut out of service for cleaning.
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I guess your back to hiring a horizontal directional drilling contractor to drill a casing bore and pull the pressure pipe through the steel casing pipe and then grouting it in place.
Another option would be to use heavier Westlake pipe joints in one pass, this would let you use a jet rodder to clen it when needed.
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Not sure how the PA DEP regulation excerpt you provided above provides for any exceptions related to stream running though existing culverts.
You would still need to get state approval and buy easement to use the culvert. I expect they would make you go 3’ below as well as that storm culvert is essentially another stream bed.
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"I expect they would make you go 3’ below as well as that storm culvert is essentially another stream bed" - PC7060
DEP states a 3ft depth in normal earthen stream bed …….but allows only a 1ft depth if you are running into solid rock.
I feel I can take that exception because what is more solid than the 2ft of solid reinforced concrete of the culvert floor itself?
They do require a concrete surround as well at min depths , because lets say a backhoe or fire truck can't damage the pipe …….. what better surround than the 2ft thick walls and ceiling the culvert provides?
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Hello Rick,
These box culverts and stream bed passages under bridges have to be cleared of debris and silt buildup from flooding to allow the water course to have adequate flow to prevent flooding upstream.
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From PA reg above
“In general, one foot of cover should be provided where the sewer is located in rock and three feet of cover (including concrete encasement) in other material”
you won’t know until you talk with the state PE.
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Generally speaking,
You are not permitted to change the natural profile (shape or path) of the stream. The culvert pictured above, is skewed about 18 degrees from the run of the highway itself. That's because that was the natural path of the stream.
Looking thru this culvert to the far end, you can see the "rip-rap" on the left side bank. This is to control bank erosion as the stream turns into the culvert.
The first 6ft into the culvert, they did an ok job of maintaining the stream's bed natural profile. After that, the emulated stream bed was poorly constructed. Its basically just 4 inches of rocks laid over the culverts floor.
To meet the 3ft "buried into the stream bed" I would simply form (push) the rocks to the left and right side on the culverts floor (emulating the true stream's bed profile) to "bury the pipe". This would form the natural "V" profile of the stream.
This allows a continuous small stream of water for small fish to pass even at very low flows. The deeper side banks, afford a dry walk path for the small animals and deer crossing under the culvert.
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Just a wild suggestion:
Assuming this is a single house, would it be possible to just install septic tank(s) as a holding tank and then have them pumped out as needed.
A lot of money has been discussed above and tank pumping is not that much cost by comparison, even over several years.
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Your suggestion of grading in the culvert will alter its hydraulic capacity — as well as almost guaranteeing that your pipe will be washed away by anything much over a 10 year storm. Quit dodging reality.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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I don t think PA DOT will see it that way. They own the entire culvert and, as Br. Jamie said, will not allow a reduction in capacity.
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They have a long depleted septic/leach field system now (no percolation). Pumping it out every two weeks at $250 a visit. : (
(30 room motel)
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Public building, then? Licensed, I assume? Public health inspections? Being creative is wonderful, but for a public building it's not in the cards. Do everything — and I do mean everything — by the local and State codes. Don't cut corners.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
good luck fighting them.
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