Sanitary sewer pipe thru box culvert?
Comments
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Agreed! : )
Local township engineer is ok with the plan, but said you have to see if I can get exception permits from DEP and HOP (phone conversations look ok, but in committee is another thing)
I'm also revisiting the HDD option (pic attached)
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.…... anyone operate an HDD rig before?
Thinking about renting a rig and trying it out myself!
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..…... if it works out well for this pipe install, I'll run it under horizontally on the main highway here for about 500ft and chemically "frack" the hard rock ground strada to increase the water flow into our well water.
( just kidding Leonz!! ) : )
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Hello Rick,
Did you contact the fellow that I suggested you contact to ship all your excess water by rail to communities that desperately need potable water?
You have a straight shot for that bore, you need a launch pit at the drain line from the apartments to the septic tanks and reception pit near the sanitary sewer line to connect the new branch lateral to the main sewer line with a saddle tap. You are at the point where you need a macerator/grinder for the discharge of the solid waste if they let you create a small diameter force lateral rather than a 4 inch gravity sewer thjaty will require a 4 inch bore and 6 inch back reaming for the pipe.
The drilling contractor will be the one to decide where the launch pit and reception pit will be as the launch pit will also be where the drilling mud cIeaning plant will be located as you need to be able have the waste mud and gravel removed.
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Hi Leonz! : )
"Did you contact the fellow that I suggested you contact to ship all your excess water by rail to communities that desperately need potable water?"
no! …. not yet! That project is on hold (another project needed my immediate attention)
"You are at the point where you need a macerator/grinder for the discharge of the solid waste if they let you create a small diameter force lateral …… "
My experience with the sewage lift stations within the motel industry , I prefer not to use a macerator or grinder pumps. I screen (see pics) the really bad stuff (needles and latex stuff) so the pumps never have to deal with them.
I use a stainless steel screen to do this (pictured)
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Hey!
DEP said they would entertain my plan to entrain my 2" HDPE thru the culvert! (preparing the required permits now!) He said I'm making an unusual, but reasonable conformance to the code requirements.
Their main concern was that I first get my PENDOT "HOP" (permission to construct within there right of way). After that, they will review my stream/culvert crossing request.
The township already indicated probable acceptance to the plan, but only after approval of the other agencies.
This might be a first! : )
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@PC7060
"They own the entire culvert and, as Br. Jamie said, will not allow a reduction in capacity."
The culvert is a 100 year flood design (Big) with very low flow stream running thru it. Its about 5ft high by 12 ft wide and 30ft long.
Me putting in a 2" HDPE pipe in the absolute bottom corner, running its length of this massive box culvert, is not going to change any measurable designed flow capacity issues.
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Has the installation of a sand filter and modern septic tanks been examined and costed out?
The six huge issues are (1) scouring, (2) rock damage from impact, (3) down stream pollution due to flash flooding loading with debris, (4) the pipe would be buoyant during these weather conditions and (5) subject to impact damage, (6) Last but not least is the issue of contamination of a down stream raw water drinking water source at a lower elevation. It may be simpler and less costly to install a small aerobic digestion plant system with a sludge holding tank and chlorination of the clear effluent. It would require daily monitoring/testing for bacteria and dissolved solids, and maintaining the daily chlorine supply and chlorination of the clear effluent prior to discharge.
An enclosed concrete lined oxidation ditch would be a viable option as long as it is correctly maintained, sludge vacuumed and the clear effluent passing through secondary settling basins with weirs is properly chlorinated.
An HDD bore of 500 feet with casing pipe under the highway the entire length of the highway right of way using a 6 inch gravity drainage line to an interceptor sewer would be simpler to do.
The other issue is the removal of the septic system, septic tanks and drainage field to depth and replacing it with crushed bank run gravel as the proper backfill as the entire area is contaminated with untreated effluent and the excavated ground will be transported to a properly lined sanitary landfill for toxic waste.
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your earlier email described covering the pipe with stone ballast.
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yes! …….. with the stone in the culvert.
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……… pondering!
In lieu of a physical motorized pump to make a forced lateral sewage pipe …… being that were 40ft in elevation above the discharge point into the municipal gravity sewer main 350 feet away, I should be able to eliminate the physical electrical pump! ……. this should create a 350 foot "Siphon Jet"!
Automatically power siphoning the effluent from the holding tank when full.
A powerful "siphonic" forced lateral!
….. thoughts on this?
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It will not work with sewage,
You have to understand that an HDD bore is complicated no matter the size as you will end up with a larger mud filled bore that may have to be back reamed to create a clear bore hole that the new pipe will be pulled through in 4 passes, the first pass being the drilling pass for the casing pipe under the road to the first reception pit
The second phase is driving the long casing pipe under the road for the full length of the right of way and then drilling through the casing pipe to the reception pit at the gravity sewer where there will be a trench box to make the saddle connection.
The driller will have to decide where the launch pit and reception pits will be excavated as they have to have enough room to bring in the drill the sewer pipe, tanks of fresh water, the drilling mud pumps and the mud cleaning screener and also have enough room to collect the drill cuttings and remove them.
They will be making a great deal of noise as well.
The launch pit and the reception pit will have to have be large enough and long enough to allow the pipe to be connected to the drill string and the pipe swivel is attached after the drill motor is removed all while the drilling mud is being pumped through the bore hole and recirculated to maintain an open bore hole. The HDD drill string will continue rotating as the drill rods are drawn back through the bore hole and removed one at a time until enough of the new pipe is pulled out the bore hole to reach the new lateral connections at the septic tanks.
You will need a trench box at the reception pit to make the saddle connection to the existing gravity sewer as well as a trench box to make and break the connections from the building to the septic tanks but not before the septic tanks have been completely pumped out and the tanks plugged as the leach field water will continue to drain back into the tanks.
If, you have the rise and run for a 500 foot HDD bore for a 6 inch Westlake pipe; it will be less work as long as all the existing grey water connections and septic tank connections are broken and then all the existing drains are properly tied into the new HDD drain pipe. You also have to deal with the existing leach fields draining back into the empty septic tanks because of the saturated ground by pumping them out a second or third time and discharging the effluent into the new connections using a manhole which will also make it easier to run a jet rodder through the pipe from the manhole.
What you are proposing is an IMHOFF Tank of sorts that still requires it to be pumped out to work.
A civil engineer will have to design this system for you and obtain the permits as you will be crossing under a 4 lane road.
Gravity sewers of any size can and do run for miles as long as there is drainage slope in the design to just let it drop from point a to point b.
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Do you have enough water supply to keep the invert flushed out constantly?
Soap grease buildups, leading to siltation, add lint from washing machines, disposable wipes that should not be flushed, P trap waste draining into the line leading to clogs. A one percent slope over 500 feet has a drop of 60+- inches so gravity is always a winner even with 6 inch pipe. The pipe will have to be vented at the higher elevation to work properly as well.
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"Do you have enough water supply to keep the invert flushed out constantly?"
- Leonz
The existing inground septic storage tank is a concrete box 5' x 5' x 6' (aprox. 1,000 gal capacity).
I assume when you say the "invert" your referring to the point of where the pipe would be crossing the stream?
On the down leg of this siphon jet, this discharge pipe, never really inverts as there is a positive gravity flow "tilt" all the way thru the culvert and out to the municipal gravity sewer main.
My thoughts are to store all the effluent in this tank until it is full, then automatically, release this powerful torrent (flush) of elevated (40ft drop) of effluent to this down sloping pipe.
……….. a 350 ft toilet siphon flush really! : )
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"You have to understand that an HDD bore is complicated ……… " - Leonz
……. and expensive too! The three quotes so far are around $85K min. for the completed project !! ….. will be higher if they hit solid rock formations : (
Keep in mind this is a small 1950's roadside motel orphaned (isolated) by practical and economic township sewer infrastructure plans. (ie: the township is not going to install a long and expensive sewer main just to serve this one customer)
A HDD solution is certainty the best solution …….. but is way out of the economic reach of the motel.
With $1,500.00 worth of HDPE pipe and a walk behind 2" wide trencher, I can very easily tie this motel into the municipal sewer main for about $12K : )
…..and the township now gets a new and perpetual sewer tax rental income from a 30 unit commercial property.
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……….. pondering!
As it is required that I would have to attach a metallic "underground trace wire" to this buried plastic pipe for future location identification, I'm thinking why not just use "Heat Tracing" wire? This would serve the requirement of injected signal trackability (location) ……. and be a ready on-demand pipe heater should there ever be a freeze threat (highly unlikely) of the embedded pipe going thru the culvert stream bank.
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Optimistic
adjective
op·ti·mis·tic ˌäp-tə-ˈmi-stik Synonyms of optimistic: of, relating to, or characterized by optimism : feeling or showing hope for the future
See also: @RickDelta
🙂
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No, the invert is the lowest portion of the pipe.
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Do you have a negotiated easement already for this buried utility?, if not you need one.
Stranded direct burial copper wire is the tracer wire of choice for magnetic location of pipe and buried wiring. Don't forget you also need buried pipe warning tape covering one foot above the pipe.
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The "invert" is the bottom 1/4 cross section of the pipe diameter.
The discharge pipe still has to be vented for gravity to work. Who owns this property where the desired pipe route is located?
A vermeer trencher would allow you to install a 4 inch HDPE sewer pipe. Hiring a farm drainage installer with a tracked trencher using a trench boot to place the 4 inch pipe in the trench would be a faster more effective way to tie it all in with a gravity sewer by passing the septic tank.
The effluent that would drain back into the tank from the flooded leach field could be pumped into a small manhole used for a cleanout.
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No.
"invert: the floor, bottom or lowest portion of the internal cross-section of a closed conduit. Used particularly with reference to aqueducts, sewers, tunnels, drains and maintenance hatches(manholes), originally it referred to the inverted arch which was used to form the bottom of a masonry lined sewer."
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………. pondering!
In my 1,000 gallon septic storage tank elevated 40 ft above the municipal gravity sewer connection, instead of using an electrical solenoid "flush" valve ……. simply use a "bell siphon" located in the storage tank itself!
Siphonic "Auto-flushing" with no electrical power at all!
Stores all the effluent in the tank until its full, then automatically siphons all the effluent out of the tank.
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What are you going to do when it plugs with solids and grease?
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……. what I like about the "Bell Siphon" is that there are no flappers or sealing surfaces to fail to seat from suspended solids within the effluent.
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It will not work, you have to have a larger diameter to allow for occasional high flow discharge just as it is done in municipal sewers which takes advantage of GRAVITY.
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"It will not work, you have to have a larger diameter to allow for occasional high flow discharge." - Leonz
Don't see what saying here …. please elaborate!
A siphonic drain at these elevation differentials produce discharge flows many times more powerful than any gravity drain system.
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Sure it does for water alone, but again, the sludge buildup in the tank over time will not allow it to work especially if the pipe is not vented.
To take advantage of gravity a large enough 6 inch drain connected to the all the common drains from the buildings will allow the gravity flow of the sewage created by all 30 units because the larger VENTED sloped pipe allows the waste to flow downhill over time. If you have low flow shower heads and faucets you need to move at least 180 gallons per minute to a 6 inch vented gravity sewer which is above its capacity in gallons per minute when every toilet is flushed, and every faucet is wide open and every shower is opened. The use of a 1 percent slope aids in its discharge speed to the trunk sewer.
As I explained earlier a small aerobic digester would aid you in this because the positive displacement blower used to inject atmospheric air into the settling tank would allow the natural microbes consume the sewage waste over time and you would be able to pump clear untreated effluent to the trunk sewer using Westlake Pipe and fittings to connect to the trunk sewer saddle connection. You would also be able to remove the grey water in the soil over time after by pumping out the grey water as it drains back.
epa.gov/septic/types-septic-systems
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How are you getting this approved? I expect you will need a PE to sign off on design.
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……… pondering!
To fabricate the "Bell Siphon", simply extend a 2" vertical standing pipe up 3/4's from the storage tanks floor.
Directly over this pipe, within the tanks top cover, install a 12" bolt-down round access plate.
Attached to this access plate, extend down over the 2" vertical standing pipe, a 4" pipe, reaching down to almost the bottom of the storage tank. …. DONE!
There would be no physical support connections between these two pipes.
A clear 360 degree unobstructed flow path throughout the bell siphon.
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"How are you getting this approved? I expect you will need a PE to sign off on design." - PC7060
LOL!! : ) ……. sorry!
It's a complex explanation, but I'll cut it short here.
Basically,
I'm a computer software programmer by trade (Java and C), but I engage in many other technical fields (projects) as its my desire to understand things all around us. (i've always said …"I never worked a day in my life!" …. I have so much interesting fun doing this!)
Generally speaking, …. as for the owner of a property or business only, you can obtain required permits for your own use for your property. In this case, for a forced sewer lateral, I needed to submit technical plans and to demonstrate my technical knowledge to the township sewer engineer. Then only needing to have the Township Inspector do his inspection of the work.
Where in critical life safety projects …… I submit my plans to a licenced engineer ….. only for his required "seal".
I'm currently designing an "invisible dog fence" pet containment system using on-site GPS "like" RF modules mounted to the corners of the home.
….. the "autonomous mobile tag" is the dog! : )
I determine if the dog violates his allowed roaming boundary with a collar mounted CPU running a "point-in-polygon" algorithm.
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In re: …… "sanitary sewer bell dosing siphon"
Its recommended to install a small tube from inside the bell's top air chamber, running outside the bell, and down, ending just short of the bell intake port near the bottom of the tank.
This is to "break-the-vacuum" immediately! …. so the strong laminar siphon discharge flow ends quietly and without vibration.
I'm assuming that without this vacuum break …… the pressure differentials near tank empty condition ……. causes the water in the dosing bell to cavitate momentarily!
……. I'm pondering to exclude this tube and allow the bell to momentarily cavitate as a desired function to liquify any residual solids accumulating within the bell chamber. (think: sand blasting or ultra-sonic cleaning!) : )
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In reading the majority of this post I would put my "Two Cents" in and say this.
Add to the current discharge receiver you have that is allowed by your local code and local governing agencies. These rules that the agencies are required to uphold are in place for a number of reasons that have been mentioned above. This situation is certainly one of those reasons.
There is some engineering that you will need to propose and submit before anything is started. I have had to wait months for all approvals to come through before starting such projects.
Know and follow this acronym [ "CYA". ]
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