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How can I find (and test) my steam system main vent?

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Comments

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057
    edited September 18

    I said steam is more like air since they are both gases. Apology not accepted 😉

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
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  • ARobertson13
    ARobertson13 Member Posts: 47

    Sorry, I read it twice because I thought it did not make sense. I read it a third time on my phone and realized I got it wrong. I have dyslexia.

    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    I probably could have written it clearer, apology accepted 🙂

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
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  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    The concepts are making more sense.

    Yes, A is full of air. You do not want steam to make the full round trip into A. The vent is at the end of the main. It is pointless extra steam reaching C that did not make it to the radiators. So, A blocks the steam and it mostly ends a B. Maybe some water hammer happens at A? But, A should be cooler than B/C. Once steam in B/C cools off, water drains into A, and the return into boiler?

    ethicalpaul
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    Also, if the main vent is stuck closed, then B and maybe also C will not get hot, b/c the air inside A/B/C will not let steam pass. So, if B and C is cold, that means main vent is not opening?

    If main vent is stuck open, then what happens? Steam reaches C, and then B, so both B & C get hot, and A will stay cold since all steam is escaping from B. But A stays cold when main vent correctly closes itself also. So what's the difference is B is open or closed? ie: Why does main vent at B need to close?

    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057
    edited September 19

    Your questions are very good

    No water hammer at A unless incorrect near boiler piping exists. Typically only cold water that comes into contact with steam will cause hammer…so imagine C is improperly pitched and has a sag. In between heating cycles, that standing water will cool, and when steam comes across it, it may cause hammer (the steam rapidly collapses and the rush of air/steam to fill that void picks up the water and flings it against the pipe).

    Yes, all condensate from the main and all radiators flows from C to A and continues down back to the boiler.

    Any steam that condenses in C or B will cause a local area of low pressure that will allow more steam to fill it. People sometimes say "pulls in more steam" but really the steam is being pushed to fill the low pressure area…you can't pull steam.

    Also, if the main vent is stuck closed, then B and maybe also C will not get hot, b/c the air inside A/B/C will not let steam pass. So, if B and C is cold, that means main vent is not opening?

    Exactly. B and C staying cold is a key indicator the vent is failed closed. In that case, all the air of the main must escape through any working radiator vents, and that takes a long time, delaying heating.

    If main vent is stuck open, then what happens? Steam reaches C, and then B, so both B & C get hot, and A will stay cold since all steam is escaping from B. But A stays cold when main vent correctly closes itself also. So what's the difference is B is open or closed? ie: Why does main vent at B need to close?

    If B doesn't close, then you lose a lot of steam out of it, which means you will have to replenish the water in the boiler very much more often than you want. The introduction of fresh water into a boiler greatly increases corrosion of its iron. Preventing steam and water leaks is a prime maintenance item of any residential steam system.

    I've brought your labels here to page 2:

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
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  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    Also, if main vent at B is stuck open, I will easily be able to see that hearing steam and/or seeing moisture dripping down riser B

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    maybe easy to see, maybe not.

    Certainly easier to see when you cut away some of that sheetrock

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    @ethicalpaul I turned on the heat today. A & B & C were all hot. That's good, right?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    Yes. I would expect A to not get as hot, or to take longer to get hot because it just gets hot from condensate, not from steam (if I understand your system correctly)

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,234

    You're probably OK with that heat pattern. But that vent might still be too small.

    Try this: measure each side of the basement wall. Say you find out each side is 20 feet. If the main wraps around the basement like I think it does, and there is a space of 2-3 feet or so between the main and the foundation wall, the distance of the main as it wraps around would be roughly 70 feet or so. A Gorton #1 is too small to fill that main quickly.

    Another trick is to wait till the system is cold. Remove the main vent (you may have to unscrew the riser from the tee in the main to do this) and start the boiler. Use the stopwatch in your phone to time how long it takes between the time steam starts coming out of the boiler, and when it reaches the tee for the vent.

    Now install a Gorton #2 in the tee. You will need a 3/4x1/2" bushing since this vent has a 1/2" thread. Wait till the system is cold and repeat the timing exercise. If the timing is the same or nearly so, you're done. If not, you need more venting. The #2 has its own short riser so you probably won't need to use the one you now have.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    I like your advice, @Steamhead, but why would you test from cold when during the heating season and especially with insulated pipes, a maybe better test is with the pipes warm.

    With the pipes cold, a much smaller vent will seem big enough because the steam will travel much slower since it has to heat the pipes much more.

    It feels strange to argue against my usual position that massive venting isn't really that helpful.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,234

    @ethicalpaul , it's much easier to do it this way if you're not used to working with steam. There is no question when the steam has reached a certain point in the system when you start from cold.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    ethicalpaul
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,164

    He meant that air and steam are both gasses, which they are… all three are fluids (there are some remarrkably weird things which are fluids, by the way, technically speaking. But I don't think we need to go there?) Air is sufficiently far from it's condensing point to behave pretty much like an ideal gas. Steam, at the pressures and temperatures we play with, isn't — so it does some very odd things at times. But for most purposes it's a reasonably well behaved gas…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    I reviewed this thread.

    You guys think Gorton #1 because of thick nut on base of photo?

    And you're suggesting it may not be the right size?

    The main pipe in basement is basically a square of size 13x16 feet (about 58 feet of main)

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    The main pipe in basement is basically a square of size 13x16 feet (about 58 feet of main)

    I am not confident about removing the main vent. I have a pipe wrench and large channellocks.

    I will turn on the heat and time how long it takes for ABC main vent area to heat up (after the boiler riser gets hot with steam). How long is correct vs. incorrect?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057
    edited 12:11AM

    it’s not an absolute pass/fail.

    As @Steamhead described earlier in this thread, it’s a comparison between steam filling your main with no vent vs steam filling your main with the vent in place.

    Your vent is definitely a Gorton #1. The larger #2 is dramatically larger, almost comically larger

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,234

    @CoachBoilermaker , as I said earlier, that main needs a bigger vent. I speak from experience. Go with a Gorton #2.

    What size is the vent that is stuck? Could be 4, 5, 6, C or D.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    What problem is the small vent causing?

    Do you think the small main vent what's causing my radiators to not fill up?

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,234

    It is slowing the arrival of steam to the rads farther from the boiler.

    You want the first minute or so of steam leaving the boiler to fill the main all the way to the vent. Then, when the vent closes, there is steam at every T joint where a radiator pipe connects to the main. So the steam rises to all the rads at about the same time.

    This way, the boiler does not have to run as long to get heat to the house, improving comfort and saving fuel.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110
    edited 1:25AM

    I will run the heat tomorrow

    I will feel the boiler main riser and start the timer when it gets hot.

    I will then listen for air at the main vent (gorton #1 in ceiling)

    Then I will see how long it takes for the main vent ABC riser area to get hot.

    Thank you for your time and expertise. You are good people, and I hope to make you proud by solving this on my own.