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Pump?

TBack
TBack Member Posts: 21

looking for a pump to circulate water from a tank 2ft below the pump up through a solar panel, top of the panel is 8ft above the pump, it is and open, drain back system

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,130

    How much flow

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,672

    Pipe size

    GPM

    Water / Glycol

    ???

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    A typical hydronic circulator needs to have water above it and a few psi pressure

    It cannot lift out of a pit or tank

    Sump pumps or well pumps can lift but are not usually sized for solar flows

    They are not rated for temperatures above 140f

    Ideally a hydronic circ, they are rated to 225F, located below the water level

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    it is a 1”supply and return header that feeds 17 - 1/2” lines 32 ft long . I don’t know what typical flow rates are for a pane , this one is 256sqft of heating surface , 4gpm? Not really sure . Straight water hoping to have a max tank temp of 150-155f using a caleffi isolar plus control . Here is a rough sketch I didn’t draw all 17 lines. I have cast coils in the tank for HX which feed the boiler loop which has 3way valves in the supply and returns and the boiler bypassing all the circuits when tank temp is sufficient . Only if I can figure how to get flow through the collector.

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I forgot to include the drain back solenoid valve that would allow the panel to drain but leave water above the pump. Looks like I made a major mistake with that pump. I was hoping replacing it with a up15-55sfc would have solved it. Not sure what to do now. Maybe make a tank to create a sort of sump to get the pump below the waterline?

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    what about using a transfer pump like

    to start and then using a circ pump or does it have the same issue?

    mattmia2
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,075
    edited October 2024

    Interesting Tank

    What you have illustrated here is an open system. The type of circulator pumps we use on boilers, like the UP15 series you referenced, are usually designed for closed systems. Those pumps are not designed to pull water from a open system tank and lift it above the tank to be let to flow by gravity back the the tank.

    Now your open system is nothing like the closed system that is illustrated by the Ferris Wheel. That is because your open system's return water is NOT allowing the weight of the water coming back down help the pump "circulate". You will need a pump that is self priming and delivers enough head to push that water up to the top. And that is when you will get the noisy operation described in the article above.

    How easy would it be to design a closed system that is filled to the top? This way you can use a regulator circulator pump designed for a closed system. You will need to add an expansion tank to allow for the increase in volume when the water heats up. the system can also be drained (manually or automatically) if the water temperature gets too close to freezing. You are just not using the pump to get the water that high. You will be using what is called "static pressure" to get the water that high, and the pump head can be very low. just enough to overcome the friction loss of the system.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,699

    Hi, It would be noisy, but a diaphragm pump, like a bilge pump can lift water. The right pump can take up to 180F.

    A different approach is to bring the pipe up and out of the tank, then turn and head back down the side of the tank and put your pump there. Make a way to prime the pipe so on starting, the pump cannot get air bound.

    Yours, Larry

    mattmia2
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    Here is how you can use a hydronic circ or two to pump from an open, unpressurized tank.

    Come out the top, drop 1" down to the floor, mount the pump(s) as low as possible. The first time you need to prime the pump, after that they have the "head" columnPfor inlet pressure.

    If the pump is 5' below the water lever .433 X 5 = 2 psi positive pressure on the pump.

    Two small pumps in series doubles the head. Run them both for a minute to fill the collector, shut one off and let just one flow. Most I solar controllers have the dual pump option. Two small circs tend to be less $$ than a high head version.

    Probably around 27' of height is about as high as you can maintain a siphon. We struggled at high altitudes to keep a siphon much over 25'

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    This detail on the pipe coming down from the collector is where you break the siphon to allow the collector to quickly drain back. That tee opening needs to stay above the water level, to allow air in

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    thanks HotRod! As far as two contacts I am already using the second to run a pump to circulate between the coils in the tank and my boiler loop in the house. Could I wire a second pump in series with the 1st relay but have an isolated time delay relay? With an off delay ?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    what is the distance from water level to top of collector? That is the “lift”

    A 15-55 will do about 18’

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    A Grundfos 15-100 is a great drainback pump,, high head, low flow, it will do 30’ of lift. It is a 1.1 amp, but we have run them for years with that Resol control in the variable speed mode

    5-6 gpm should move all that collector can produce

    If you use an ECM type of pump, you cannot use the variable speed function, just on/ off

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I have a 15-58 in there now, it is about 12ft of head, I was thinking about your comment of the two pumps piped in series and didn’t think I needed th extra head as it is only 10 -12 ft , not like some that have there’s mounted on a roof. Mine is a 20x32 shed with a 1000 gallon tank in the ground made to serve my house with all inter connected piping trenched underground.

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    when I search for that specific pump I can’t find it, I do get a caleffi pump which looks to be a sweat in connection vs a flanged . Is that pump made exclusively for caleffi?

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    looks like the 15-100 was discontinued and replaced with a 26-99 , 3 speed pump, is this still able to be modulated by the solar plus? As far as controlling pump speed based on panel and tank temps?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332
    edited October 2024

    if your tank is in the ground, how will you get the pump mounted below it?

    The 15-58 with 3’ of water above it will work at 12’ of lift

    If you can’t get the pump below the water level, you could try a small submersible sump pump. Maybe a 1/4 hp from the box store. Something inexpensive to see how it flows

    It depends on how how that tank will get. 1000 gallons us a lot to heat in a 6 hour solar day

    And also how much heat you pull out of the tank every day

    The control allow you to program a max tank temperature. Maybe start at 150f

    What type of liner do you have in the tank? EPDM or pvc?


    This 1/4 hp

    will do 25’ of lift, 50 bucks on Amazon

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I was going to re- pipe the pump the risers are approximately 39” high, hopefully that would help to establish suction after priming? Assuming I would only need to re prime if /when pump needs to be serviced?

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    if that piping doesn’t solve my issue then i will get some stainless duct from work and weld up a “dry sump” with a nipple piped through it and mount my pump inside of it and place the “dry sump” inside one of the heat exchanger coils.

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    here is the tank and heat exchangers Epdm liner 1/4 extruded foam between liner and tank and 2@ extruded foam all around the outside.

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I did a test temp reading inside the return pipe a 9 a.m in the middle of January ( so sun was low and still far east ) sensor was on the upper west of panel at it was already 160 degrees ( air temp). I also did a drain down test where I metered the water in then swapped the meter to drain it and verify majority of it drains and didn’t pool in a potential low spot, this took me 3 minutes and the water was already 120 degrees ( had a thermometer in a buck that I drained into) I estimate that if I can get the tank up to 150-155 it is probably 4 days worth of sunlight. I saw an article somewhere that showed a guy in Mt who had a similar setup and he got it to 160 degrees , from my understanding the glycol will start to break down at 160 degrees? ( not in my collector or tank but in my closed loop heating system that this would be supplementing)

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,530

    Your pump is still above the water level in the tank? If you put a foot valve on the suction line, it may hold its prime OK. Otherwise, it won't.

    Glycol breaks down at 160? Interesting. Considering that it goes for several years in automotive applications at 210 plus…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    propylene glycol, different than ethylene glycol

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    hydronic glycols are rated to 325f, some solar specific versions a little higher

    If it can come in contact with potable water, it needs to be propylene glycol

    Don’t use RV antifreeze, it doesn’t have any inhibitors to protect the metals.

    Solar harvest drops quite a bit in winter, shorter days, lower sun angle, and the cold ambient air steal much more heat energy from the panels

    The tank temperature you will attain is related to tank capacity, and insulation. And the array square footage. For dhw use we use 1-2 gallons of tank per square foot of actual absorber size. Even in cold winter climates that will get the tank to 120f.

    There was a modular foam underground tank made in Utah called the Cocoon. The one installation I recall had a vault next to the tank to put the pump down at the bottom level of the tank

    Looks like you may need to use a submersible pump if some sort. A pump with a foot valve will not work, the collector will not drainback! No check valves of any type in a drainback, on either supply or return

    Contractor trash pumps are self priming, but they tend to be 1-1/2” and larger. Way to big for what you have.

    It is a nice looking HX tank. I think a sump inside the tank would have too much moisture for a typical hydronic pump.

    Why so many coils? Is that corrugated stainless flex? Beware it has a considerable pressure drop, if you intend on pumping through it.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    here is the pump I would try, 4/10 hp, 200f max. fluid temperature. Gpm is high but I think maybe you could run it off a triac on the Caleffi/ Resol controller. We ran a 5 hp shop vac on a triac once. Maybe tech support at Liberty could talk to you about using a speed control. Mention that you want to use a wave chopper type control, a basic triac relay.

    Or throw a balance valve on it and choke the flow down, but you need to do quite a bit of throttling to get down to 8- 10gpm or so. The solar controller, if you can make it work with that Liberty, will run the pump at the optimum speed based on the delta T it sees. Your limit will be the velocity in the 1” copper.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    from left to right first six are for supplementing the main boiler loop( normal operating temp is 136-138. The 7th and last coil is for domestic preheat to water heater with a small circ pump controlled by a Johnson (A421)differential temp control set between 125 & 120. I think I can put check valves in my system as the return dumps into the tank above the waterline and i have vacuum breakers and air vents. Also my drain back line is tee’d in just above the pump and enters the tank above the waterline also, about 2 1/2“ - 3” air gap .

    My other issue would be if using the 1st relay to speed control the pump and then the 2nd relay controlling a second pump that would drop out after 3-5 minutes. I would have to find an auxiliary way to cycle the solenoid drain back valve with the energizing of relay 1 that would not be pulsed?

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,407

    You can do this with a small double diaphragm pump on the floor easily with low air pressure air and with no noise by using a small inlet stabilizer that evens out the water flow and a surge dampener reduces the noise and vibration to almost none for the energy required to pump the water.

    The low pressure air discharge is vented into the water tank with a small hose and it will operate for millions of cycles before it needs to be serviced.

    The other option would be a 220 volt 1 inch 2 pipe jet pump with a pressure storage tank that will work easily for this as your tank has a shallow depth and it will take very little energy to move the water.

    Like the double diaphragm pump it will move millions of gallons of water before it needs to be serviced by using water to push water through your solar collector.

    The double diaphragm pump would need a good twin piston air compressor with a large air storage tank for the rated air volume needed for a small pump.

    The 2 pipe jet pump should have a 50 ampere feed from the electrical panel that is wired to a cartridge fuse disconnect box with BX cable to a junction box which is then wired to the pumps pressure switch and electric motor.

    The double diaphragm pump only needs 2 woven water hoses for the inlet and outlet piping to your solar collector and an air line with a quick connect fitting and ball valve from the air compressor to regulate the air flow to meter the water flow for the system.

    With either pumping method you can regulate the amount of water and the speed of the water flow by using ball valves creating pressure in the system.

    As long as either method is properly installed you can have many years of dependable water flow.

    A double diaphragm pump installed with an inlet stabilizer and surge dampener will operate with almost no noise and the diaphragms will last many millions of cycles more as the inlet water flow will be regulated and water flow out of the pump will also be regulated by the surge dampener.

    A double diaphragm pump can also operate submerged in a water volume but it still needs an inlet stabilizer and surge dampener to prolong the pumps life before the diaphragms and air valve need replacement.

    A jet pump relies on the volute in the water chamber, the pressure tank and the foot valve in the jet to hold water under pressure to prevent an air lock.

    A jet pump can operate continuously without a pressure tank also as long as the 2 pipe jet pump has water.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    You really do not need a solenoid valve or a vacuum breaker on a drainback solar piping. It adds more complexity and things to fail. So you have that second relay in the controller for any other function.

    A pump and collector is all that is requires, a sight glass is handy to assure you are draining down.

    Also not needed is an expansion tank or safety relief if this is an open system, which yours is.

    See the simplicity in these two drawings? Purple line comes off the botton of the open system tank, loops over the side, down to the pump,then up to the collector. The pump is always "flooded" and will start without priming everytime :)

    On the smaller tank schematic, this is a pressurized drainback, yes water drains back when under pressure, so it has a relief valve. PRV on the top of the tank. DHW is genertyated in the coils. A reverse indirect tank is what this is called. Similar concept to what you are doing.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    that sounds great if this was a typical store bought flat panel collector but my 1” line runs as a pitched horizontal to a 1”” riser that goes up about 8 ft then back down with 17 -1/2” pitched horizontal runs that tie into a 1” return riser. The pump is on the supply below the panel but above the tank there is a tee between the pump and the panel that goes to the solenoid “ drain back valve. So the panel will drain from the drain back valve on the supply side and the return line both of which terminate above the waterline. I originally thought that the pump didn’t have enough to pull water out of the tank but after pulling the piping & also hearing it while running I’m thinking it’s a gpm issue ? There is water in the system, and when I shut the pump off and the solenoid opens you hear the water drain back but the water never returns back to the tank while the pump is running? When I originally hooked my garden hose up to fill it and meter the water in and out ( draindown test) there were no issues on either line🤷‍♂️

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I added a new pump in series, waiting for a flow switch to activate solenoid, then we’ll see what happens

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I have an old Honeywell differential controller I will probably use to bring on the pump for the heating loop when the tank temp is within range

  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    one of these

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    my concern with a solenoid is someday it will fail, then you risk freezing up the piping and collectors


    That looks like a common setpoint control, not a differential control A differential control would include two sensors. It needs to read temperatures in two different areas

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TBack
    TBack Member Posts: 21

    I don’t think I’ll need that Honeywell differential control (it does have space for another sensor it only came with one though) . Was finally able to establish flow. I ended up drawdown the tank 1/2 way and installing a check valve about 4” below the water line. I then installed a flow switch and replaced the solenoid valve with a motorized N.O. Valve wired on a separate circuit ( not in series with the pump) I just did a test run yesterday at 4 pm . I just had enough sun/heat for it to prove that it worked then the panel got cold and shut:drained down. But it allowed me to change the settings and enable the pump modulation feature. I plan on leaving work early today to hopefully dial it in and work any other bugs out🤞🏻

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    won’t the check keep that side of the loop from draining? You might keep some glycol in it until you are sure all the exposed piping is draining

    Good that you got it circulating 👍🏻

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Sol_Brother
    Sol_Brother Member Posts: 27

    Sounds like you did what I was intending to suggest: a check valve to hold water in the pump up to the Tee above, and a normally open zone valve (powered closed when pump is energized) in the Tee's side pipe to allow everything above to drain when the pump turns off. The hope is that should the zone valve motor or wiring fail it will fail in the open position to prevent this causing potential for freezing.

    I have installed several large drainback tanks piped the way Hot Rod showed where the solar pump is mounted off the side, below tank water level. I have two suggested additions to that setup:

    1. In several cases the pump mysteriously lost its prime. I finally figured out that the high collectors were draining back so fast the water broke the seal like a toilet and sucked air into the siphon portion between tank and pump. I installed a swing check with a 3/8" hole drilled through the flapper, pointing up, above the water level (just for easy service access) between pump and collectors. This allows full flow while the pump is running but slowed the draining flow enough to stop the air intrusion.
    2. At the collector return into the tank we use a Tee with a small side port (to restrict water dumping out but allow air in) and extended the below-water horizontal portion (shown as a gray elbow in Hot Rod's "Figure 5-16" diagrams) as a pipe with many holes drilled in the sides and a cap on the end. This diffused the return flow so it did not break up the stratification in the tank.

    Tom

    Sol Brother