DIY Boiler Installation -- Peerless 63-03

mattmich · September 14

Learned Friends:

Last in first out: As Paul said, I didn't buy the vent from Gorton but from Supplyhouse. I'd ordered a second one but held it back as padding for another order (free shipping). When it arrived, the difference was crystal clear; I'll be sending the first one back.

In other news, I reworked the piping today, after ordering 6.5 and 7-inch nipples. Turns out the six-incher I already had worked a treat. I went with Paul's recommendation to tighten the pipes on the second riser less, for proper pitch. I think it worked. The whole thing was less drama than I anticipated, almost too good to be true, so I'm kinda holding my breath for a steam test.

Picture or it didn't happen:

This turned out to be a seriously overdetermined problem — too many boundary conditions. Putting the boiler on blocks + 1 layer of 1/8" fiberboard gave me a three-legged stool, with the fourth leg in the air and the third resting not on the feet of the boiler but the corner of the fire box. I fixed that by moving the concrete block farther out.. but still. Kind of a janky design. In the end I wound up with two layers of fiberboard under three blocks and three layers under a fourth, a pretty level boiler, and decent pitch in the header and the main.

So that's progress, pending a proper test. In other news, I did a first skimming, then realized I had to empty the boiler completely for the repiping.

cheers -m

mattmich · September 14

Now I have questions.

First — is there a problem with the fiberboard under the concrete blocks?

Second — I want to pipe the water next. For ease of fitment, I'm thinking a nipple, a reducing elbow, a dielectric union, and then copper going up. I'm also thinking from the source, it'll go:
Tee off existing line — pipe in a back flow preventer — split into two parallel lines — (1) automatic water feeder & (2) manual valve — re-combine into one line, then into the boiler.

Yes?

When that's done, I'll do an early-morning steam test Sun or Mon morning, since it's at least in the80s in the afternoons. And if THAT is successful, it'll be time to button up and head for the permit + inspection.

cheers -m

mattmia2 · September 14

you can shim the blocks to get everything level then stuff some mortar under and around them to hold them in place permanently.

the lateral sloping to the riser is fine. the little bit of condensate there falling back in to the boiler won't be a problem. If it were level and collected water that would cause at least some problem. A lot of times they will put a 45 in the riser and come in to the header at a 45 but it should be fine as long as it has some pitch.

You can use some tees to loop a manual valve around the automatic feeder valve. Look at @New England SteamWorks and @JohnNY and @Mad Dog_2 's posts for examples of how they pipes stuff.

ethicalpaul · September 14

I wouldn’t keep the fiberboard due to its interaction with water. Matt’s suggestion is good.

Additionally, it seems to be better to have a solid layer of blocks with no spaces so as not to affect intake air flow.

I don’t have an automatic feeder, it’s easier to know exactly how much water you’re using this way. I like the makeup water piped into the wet return. Lets the incoming water get warmed before entering the boiler (probably doesn’t matter)

Little stuff: you can replace the junky factory drain valve with a full-port valve (I used ball valves) for much better draining (fast is good—often is bad), and replace the sketchy gauge glass valve with 1/4” fittings for the same reason. Credit: @Gordo who has great videos:

https://youtube.com/%40gordonschweizer5154?si=C6t-XTHqKL6sQjp7

Pipe the PRV in copper down to within 6” of the floor, with a union or thread-to-sweated fitting in the unlikely event of eventual replacement. Keep the orientation of the PRV itself upright as it is now

this will perhaps be the best-piped steam boiler your inspector has ever seen, whether he recognizes it or not. I’ll be interested to hear how that goes

JakeCK · September 14

If he's going to remove that fiber cement board, he could just grab a bag or two of cement, build a form and pour a small slab at the exact height he needs.

ethicalpaul · September 14

True, but I didn't see that it was cement board. I would feel better about that, but I think it's MDF or similar

mattmich · September 14

Tough crowd.
So the fiber board (MDF, officially) wasn't a great idea.

Mortar (or a poured pad) would have been great, but who holds the boiler a couple feet in the air while I take care of that? I ain't moving that thing around any more than I have to.

Home Depot to the rescue; I bought a bunch of cheap, small tiles, 1/4 inch thick, and that put the blocks at the right height. A couple pieces of Al bar stock took care of the uneven corner, and viola.

While I was at it I started the water supply plumbing but capped it off, the better to take stock of consumption. Next I'll install the one good Gorton #2 I have, and tomorrow morning when it's cool I'll do a test with steam. Here's hoping everything is leak tight.

cheers -m

mattmia2 · September 14

Does the manual allow it to be installed elevated above the floor? Some designs it is fine, others need to be directly on the floor for the burner to draft correctly.

ethicalpaul · September 14

here in NJ every boiler is on blocks. But I’ll say it again that it might be better over a full course of blocks without spaces that can affect combustion air flow. I like your leveling tiles way better than the MDF

but I’ve never tested it and am skeptical that it makes a measurable difference

ps: we’re only tough because we care 😊

mattmia2 · September 14

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810456#Comment_1810456

On full blocks or a little slab is fine, it is about sealing up the bottom of the boiler so additional air isn't pulled in from extra space under the boiler. I meant to tag you and forgot while i was typing. Like i said some designs rely on the floor to seal up the bottom of the boiler, other designs do not.

JakeCK · September 14

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810457#Comment_1810457

Honestly, this boiler looks like it could be one that is affected. It looks like the burner tubes and blocks are open to one another. Mine I know 100% it does not matter. There is a sheet of metal between the two. It could be hanging in the air by the pipes and the amount of air that can enter is the same.

Personally I would move it and pour a slab. It sucks moving it again but do it right, do it once.

JakeCK · September 14

There also appear to be slots for concrete anchors on the bottom too. A slab would allow you to use those.

ethicalpaul · September 14

those slots are used during shipping. In operation that boiler isn’t going to budge

JUGHNE · September 15

I would get 16 x 8 x 4 solid blocks….maybe some 8x8……and build a solid closed base under the boiler. It can be bigger than the boiler footprint.

Then for shims you can use 4" square JB blank covers on top of the blocks as needed.

Your ceramic tiles are going to crack and come out.

Also I can see paper covered insulation thru the burner area in the back. You want to remove that…..the flame can possibly roll out to the front and rear.

ethicalpaul · September 15

nah that’s a paper bag or something with the Michigan U.P. on it 😅

I’m sure he will remove all flammable materials from around the boiler

mattmich · September 15

LoL
Good eye, Paul. Once a Michigander…

Say Ya to da UP, eh!

JakeCK · September 15

@ethicalpaul why the disagree? I said personally I would pour a slab, but blocks works too as long as the entire bottom is filled. if that boiler is in fact affected by it. It being open I bet it is.

ethicalpaul · September 15

No biggie, I was just disagreeing with the idea of moving it off the blocks and pouring a slab and putting it back.

Our friend MattMich is working alone and that kind of operation is risky

But you’re right, you did only say it’s what you would do, no hard feelings?

mattmich · September 15

I did a couple timed tests this morning and I need to copy the information somewhere permanent, so I'm putting it here. It's more for my notes than for general consumption.

From a room-temperature state, I turned on the heat. It took 14 minutes for the water to start boiling. Having skimmed for an hour before draining the boiler appears to have worked. This time only about a gallon of water went missing during the cycle, as opposed to four gallons during the most recent extended test.

From the onset of steaming, it took another eight minutes for the first radiator inlet to start heating up.

This is with tight vents on the first-in-line downstairs radiators; one an old one that I just left, and an M-o-M #4 on another. Next was an upstairs radiator with a #5 orifice, which started heating up a minute later. It took another ten minutes for the last-in-line upstairs bedroom radiator to get heat to the inlet -- that's 18 minutes after the boiler was producing steam. This is with a #6 installed, and one Gorton #2 at the end of the main.

My takeaways are #1, once steam flows into a radiator with its big surface area, it'll pull steam away from the main through the creation of a partial vacuum, and #2, a poorly balanced system will waste fuel from running too long while leaving some rooms cold.

I stopped the run after a little over 30 minutes and let everything cool off for a good hour before starting another test. At that point, the water in the boiler was still pretty hot, and steam was produced after six minutes rather than fourteen. For the two radiators that took the most heat early, I simply plugged the vents for this test. Seven minutes after steam production, the upstairs bedroom radiator -- now vented with a Maid-o-Mist 'C' orifice -- had the inlet pipe heat up and I stopped the test after a system runtime of under fourteen minutes total. The main had gotten hot all the way to the end.

I'll be ordering a few MoM #4 vents for the first-in-line and downstairs radiators and probably another Gorton for faster main venting. I wonder if my main at 2-1/2 inches x 80 ft in length isn't slowing things down more than it should. I will also be insulating everything I can with 2 inches of fiberglass to minimize re-heating time.

I'm confident I have enough heating capacity for really cold days, but I do wonder about the long startup times for spring and fall. Balancing the vents will definitely be the key.

ethicalpaul · September 15

You can and should time how long it takes from the time of boiling start to the time of steam arriving at the main vent. Time it with the main cold and with the main hot, just to have an idea of how long stuff takes to happen. You can follow the steam along the main with your hand if it has places with no insulation.

A cold main will take time to heat up so that it can carry steam. Yes it will be cold more often during the shoulder seasons and take a few minutes to heat up, don't sweat it.

ChrisJ · September 15

Personally I'd be against anchoring a boiler to a floor. My reason is if it wants to move some due to thermal expansion or whatever I want it to slide on the floor. Anchoring it just seems bad.

I have to think that block moves some as it heats and cools.

Just an assumption on my part.

JakeCK · September 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1810572#Comment_1810572

Good point, possibly right. But isn't that what the swing joints are supposed to be for?

mattmich · September 21

I finally got the gas properly piped. I think.
Sorry for the lousy pictures — please let me know if you see any problems.
It's an awful lot of fittings, but at least it's gas tight.
I made sure I can close the valve, undo the unions, and take the jacket off if I ever get access.

mattmich · September 21

Here's my water "connection."
If I can get away with it, I'll leave it like that and fill it manually as needed.
If the inspector balks, I'll just pipe in the whole shootin' match, but I think a thin syphon hose and a bucket of water will let me skim overnight without worrying about overflowing. Nice and slow.

And yes, I need to add a proper pipe to the pressure-relief valve. Silly me thought™ it was a 1/2" fitting. Shoulda looked more closely.

That leaves the venting ("six inch or five inch" per the brochure — but five inch is hard to find) and the electrical.

cheers -m

ethicalpaul · September 21

Syphon hose?

I don't understand what you're planning with the water connection

mattmich · September 21

Oh, like stealing gasoline in the seventies 😎

A bucket full of water higher than the boiler, a thin hose in said water, suck on it until it's full and then place it in the boiler spigot. If it's the right size, it'll veeeery slowly transfer a few gallons of water and push the oils out of the skim port. And when the bucket is empty, it just stops, unlike a city water connection.

cheers -m

ethicalpaul · September 21

You don't have to do all that setup, nor do you need to skim that slowly. You're overthinking it a bit here I think.

You want the incoming water to be coming from below, leaving the top undisturbed to run out.

I don't understand where the water will go into the boiler from your bucket.

mattmich · September 21

As shown.. and the water enters way low, like you said.
The first time I did it, I went in through the second riser port, and that of course disturbed the surface of the water, so I kinda took note.

ethicalpaul · September 21

Oh I see now. the cap threw me. I would just connect that to your water supply now. There's no need to skim all night long. An hour or two at a time is fine.

Don't forget the backflow preventer

mattmia2 · September 21

I don't think you can have a union inside the appliance cabinet for the gas. I'd put some support on the gas at the ceiling and maybe at the jacket. with all those fittings if someone tripped and fell into it or something similar it would twist at all those joints.

mattmich · September 21

» I'd put some support on the gas at the ceiling

Me, too. Note the two straps I added to adjust the height a bit and keep the assembly from pulling downward. It's plenty sturdy, and there's no 'traffic' past the boiler.

As far as the water supply plumbing goes.. ugh, there's ancient iron pipe, and of course I can replace it with copper, and pipe it properly, and re-run the water for the outside spigot.. but it's a whole 'nother job I was hoping to put off until spring.

Might just have to take a few days off next week.

mattmia2 · September 21

I don't think that there would be any code prohibition against filling it with a hose until you can pipe the feeder. It does need to have a lwco.

ethicalpaul · September 21

you can pipe the supply water in pex

mattmich · September 23

Excuse the mess.

Things left to do:
- Solder the piping for the pressure-relief valve
- Install the remaining sheet-metal screws for the venting
- Finish filling the gaps in the blocks under the boiler.
- Insulate everything in sight with 2" fiberglass

If anyone sees anything obviously wrong, please let me know.
BTW the reason for mounting the AC off switch in that position is that I wanted it to be visible from the doorway.
The thermostat is connected with new wiring spliced into the old, and the boiler sits on its own circuit.

Thanks in advance! -m

ChrisJ · September 23

The last time I checked 1" fiberglass was the best bang for the buck, by a lot. Has this changed? You don't gain much going from 1" to 2" and often it won't fit in spots.

Your boiler has something like 1/2" thick for a lot of it I believe.

mattmich · September 24

@ChrisJ the asbestos insulation is a good 1" thick. I'll order some of the 'glass and see how it installs.

So.
Receiving no loud shouts of Noooooo! on my pictures, I fixed up a few more things and sent a collage off to the City's mechanical inspector. I'd posted before that I'd had a couple conversations with him, and he'd sounded quite reasonable. The pictures are below.

He responded within minutes, starting with "Very nice."

He then voiced three concerns:
#1 the 6"-to-5" vent reduction, which is not code UNLESS approved by the manufacturer. I could show him chapter & verse in the installation manual, so we're good there.

#2 the union inside the cabinet, as pointed out by @mattmia2 . It's not against code, but not a great idea. I'll move it outside; it's easy enough since I have two unions downstream of the valve.

#3 the lack of hard-piped water supply; he'll check the code books to see if it's necessary.

It sounds like we're on the way to a conclusion here. Oh, and I quoted the inspection price earlier, I think. The cost of the permit is $180.

cheers -m

mattmia2 · September 25

the picture links don't work, they are linking to some outlook server

mattmich · September 25

It turns out, "editing" works best if you hit "save" after you finish…
It should be good now.

mattmia2 · September 25

I would have done the power feed in emt but liquidtight is technically allowed. Maybe a strap or 2 on the boiler to support it.

ethicalpaul · September 25

#1 the 6"-to-5" vent reduction, which is not code UNLESS approved by the manufacturer. I could show him chapter & verse in the installation manual, so we're good there.

My inspector noticed my reducer immediately and was quite upset by it. When I told him it shipped with the boiler, he just about called me a liar. In my case, and maybe yours, Peerless sends along a sheet of paper explaining it and I made him a copy for his files. He still just about couldn't believe it.

DIY Boiler Installation -- Peerless 63-03

Comments

Categories