DIY Boiler Installation -- Peerless 63-03

mattmich

The guy I'm dealing with has a good way of communicating. When I told him the same thing — reducer shipped with the boiler; manual says it's OK — he accepted it and in a nice way told me he needed to verify it. So I did a cut-and-paste from the PDF:

and got the response

» That works (RE vent), thanks.

Similarly, with the union inside the cabinet,

» The union thingy is based on the understanding that it is among the most common leak points and being with in the cabinet makes it more likely that a leak could build up and being in proximity to the burners...

Which is a great way to say, I can't force you to move the union, but you'd be an idiot not to — without actually using those words.

That leaves the hard-piped water feed as the remaining issue. Whatever the verdict is, I'll deal with it.

I'm just kinda all piped out and my day job s ramping up pretty good, so I hope I'll get a pass on that. It's not like we're going to Florida for a month.

cheers -m

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811720#Comment_1811720

It is kinda funny.

To put a 6" even though a 5" is apparently big enough.

Did they have any kind of notes about wanting a chimney of a minimum height to use the 5" ?

ethicalpaul

No, they don't get specific like that. They just say basically "must be adequate to do the job":

Chimney/Vent Operation: The vent system must be sized and installed to provide the draft needed to remove all combustion products.

I'm glad it came with that reducer since that was the size of my SS liner 😂

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811730#Comment_1811730

Yeah,

But liners are sized based on the what the manufacturer of the liner says it can do at a given height, I believe.

So a 5" in a 30' chimney isn't the same as a 5" in a 10' chimney.

The code about not being allowed to reduce the appliance's connector is strange based on that, if what I said is correct. @Bob Harper

mattmia2

The code is trying to summarize complicated engineering in to something that usually works.

I suspect the reducer is just so they don't have to make a different collector box for smaller boilers with that number of sections. Maybe they should put a sticker on the boiler.

Sometimes the code tables will tell you that you need to increase the vent after it leaves the appliance.

Boilers running glycol are frequently filled with a pump cart and have no source of automatic fill. sometimes they are installed with a feed pump or a pressurized tank and prv but they don't have to be so I don't think you need an automatic source of makeup water.

mattmich

One step at a time…

Steamhead

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1811833#Comment_1811833

Teflon tape on gas? Do your inspectors allow that? Ours don't……………..

mattmich

That's what it says on the Teflon tape container.. beyond that I dunno. There's plenty of tape on the prior version, and the inspector didn't comment on that.

Of course, I don't know this stuff, which is why I posted this image earlier, inviting comment. And the comment I got was, correctly, that I shouldn't have the union inside the cabinet.
Time will tell.

mattmia2

I don't see anything in the fuel gas section 2015 michigan residential code that prohibits teflon tape or even that requires dope or tape, the only mention is that is says the dope has to be compatible with the gas.

Make sure you don't wrap the tape all the way to the end of the threads, leave 2 or 3 threads exposed so it doesn't get inside the pipe when using it with gas (or fuel oil). Not sure if we mentioned that or not.

EdTheHeaterMan

I'd be surprised if the local plumbing inspector has a clue about steam boilers. The job you did looks GREAT. If your inspector has any questions about the way it is piped, pleas ask them nicely, to site the code violation from his code book including the exact section chapter and verse of the code that they are using to fail the inspection. Post that info here so we can help resolve the issue.

I love it when inspectors make mistakes that you can question them on. As long as you ask nicely for the reason, you may get the approval because they really don't know and don't want to look thing up. I remember a plumbing code official that told me that I can't install a gas pipe because I needed a state plumbing license. He sited an article that was on the first page of a journal to code inspectors that stated "All piping in the State of New Jersey MUST be installed by a licensed plumber. The following types of piping are excluded from this code: and it went on to list about 4 different piping systems like Hydronic Heating Systems, Fuel piping, Oxygen piping systems, Etc. and the article ended on page one of the journal with the line "continued on page 23."

So I asked the inspector for page 23, so I could read the full article. It turns out there were over 30 other piping systems that were excluded from the "ALL PIPING" and you will never guess what was one of the "Exceptions". That's right NATURAL GAS AND LP GAS. You know what his reply was to that? "Well I guess I'll let you go this time."

mattmich

I'd be surprised if I had to play games with this gentleman. When I talked to him in the summer he said a couple things that made me ask if he'd read the Holohan book, and lo and behold, he had.. and went on to say, "if you've read Lost Art book, I don't think you'll have a problem."

We've been doing the picture thing back and forth, and he's fine with the re-done gas plumbing, he's OK'd the 5" inch vent, and he strongly suggested I'd hard pipe the water supply, which I did yesterday. Not my best work, to put it mildly, and it took a few tries to get it all leak tight. It's all in a straight line so I can take it out trivially with the unions on the backflow preventer; if I ever go the automatic-water-feed route, I'll start further upstream and redo everything in copper. There are some ancient galvanized pipes that I just didn't feel like dealing with, esp since they don't feed anything else.

I hate hate hate soldering valves and the like where some of the parts just can't get arbitrarily hot. Regular copper doesn't bother me, except for working close to the framing. It'd be awkward to catch the house on fire.

And by Thu morning it'll be a chilly 44 degrees (7 degrees socialist), so I guess that's when the heating season starts…

cheers -m

mattmia2

even very old galvanized pipe, especially cold water where it corrodes much more slowly, usually comes apart and you can adapt to copper if you're careful to get a good 3 point grip on it with the wrench so you don't collapse it.

I usually buy npt valves and use copper adapters so i'm only out an adapter if something goes awry.

ChrisJ

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812476#Comment_1812476

The copper adapters I've used over the past 5 years, including male NPT have absolutely stunk.

The thread quality is absolutely terrible.

mattmich

» I usually buy npt valves and use copper adapters so i'm only out an adapter if something goes awry.

Yep. I did that for the ball valve after mangling an old one I had lying around. MUCH better to have the threads. The backflow preventer acts as a union, so that was easy.

Apparently I have to add a pipe to the backflow preventer that's just like the pressure relief valve. My old BP didn't have anything like that.. but then not much else was done right in the installation.

Regarding the old galvanized pipe; it's a remnant. From my water main, I've got 3/4" PVC, so all I have to do is replace the iron pipe with whatever I want. The only iron pipe left anywhere is inside the walls, going to the upstairs bathroom. That's on the list to replace also, but it'll be a job.

cheers -m

mattmia2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1812486#Comment_1812486

That is sort of the description of all modern threaded stuff, it seems especially brass. The last time I adapted to galvanized I used a brass nipple with wicking and dope(and probably tape) on the part that went in to the galvanized and then I think it went to an NPT valve from the brass nipple.

mattmich

Progress report.

We just had a wee stress test — went on a ten-day vacation with near-freezing night temperatures in the offing, so the heat was left on, with the thermostat set to 55 F.

I have no idea how often the boiler actually ran — at a guess, around half a dozen times, or ten, or two. But there wasn't a drop of water missing per the sight glass, which is good.

I started raising the thermostat a few degrees at a time, and there was serious surging going on. As in, a good 3 gallons going missing for 30 seconds or so, and then coming back into the glass. So I skimmed again, but in reality, over an hour or so, I emptied about half the boiler's water this way. That's not skimming, that's replacement.

It's the 3rd or 4th time I've skimmed, and I'd like to know when I can expect this to stop. Every time I skim, the water level movement goes down to about a gallon peak-to-peak, but then it gets worse over time. I'd like to think that at some point this will stop, as all the oil has washed out. How much longer?

Nothing much else to report. I still need to put in the dielectric union and the drip leg for the backflow preventer, which will never ever see water, but it's code.

Overall, I'm relieved.

cheers -m

delcrossv

Nicely done! How are you supplying water?

mattmich

I plumbed in a manual feed line at the suggestion of the city inspector.
It's got a shut-off valve + a gate valve in-line to regulate flow better.

The one thing I don't like about the Peerless boilers is that the skim port is a good 1.5 gallons above the waterline, which adds a lot of unnecessary fresh, oxygen-rich water every time you skim.

ethicalpaul

So I skimmed again, but in reality, over an hour or so, I emptied about half the boiler's water this way. That's not skimming, that's replacement.

no, that's skimming!

Did you wash it out with TSP (or washing powder as peerless says) after you installed it, as the manual suggests (if I recall correctly). That really reduces the amount of skimming you have to do (since the tsp breaks down so much oil).

I don't know if doing so now will help, but regardless, don't worry about fresh water at this point. Worry about it for the mid to long term, not now.

I think the skim port location is good. If it was nearer the water line it would take that much longer because the upper part of the boiler would sort of hold oil on it that much longer.

trivetman

Mine was skimmed probably 5 (maybe 6?). times over the first couple months of operation. As the oil accumulated it surged so bad it created enough localized pressure to trigger the vaporstat and short cycled before it even got steaming.

After that last skim….troublefree.

Skimming It does add a fair bit of new water. I don’t think it’s avoidable. One time I did so much skimming I figured I might as well drain it after and get any sludge out as the water was all new anyways.

mattmich

Thanks, guys, that helps with context.

No I did not use the 'washing soda' but I might. It's been a month, not a week, but the boiler has not run much since it's still warm during the day. Which makes the "more effective if the boiler operates 24 to 48 hours" a little problematic. It's basically, run once at four or five in the morning, and then again the next morning, or the next week.

I'm learning that my house is better insulated than I thought, plus the brick veneer is thick and heavy and holds a ton of heat. I'm not complaining about that, except in the middle of summer.

At the moment, I've got everything turned off since it'll be warm again today and I've opened the windows. When it gets cold I'll run it again and watch the sight glass. If it bounces more than an inch peak-to-peak, it gets the soda. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

cheers -m

ChrisJ

I skimmed my boiler, I think 6 times before washing it out with a wand and skimming back in 2011-2012. Each time I think I removed something like 10 gallons.

When will skimming be over? When you're finished.

mattmia2

The skim port has to be above where the sections connect together so that the oil can float on top of the water from each of the sections and out the port. Heat the boiler to just boiling after you fill it to that level to make the oil more fluid.

Adding detergent and nearly flooding the boiler and and getting it to boiling then maybe completely flooding it and letting it sit for half an hour or so with detergent in it then draining and flushing is likely to still get rid of a lot of oil at this point but you will still have oil coming down from the system that you will have to remove after the system runs some more.

The vent from the double check will squirt/dribble water out the vent if the pressure on the boiler side is ever higher than on the supply side like if you lose domestic water pressure with pressure on the boiler.

Washing soda is sodium carbonate. TSP is trisodium phosphate. Washing soda is what is largely used in place of TSP where TSP is not allowed to be sold where consumers normally buy detergents. I would only do the detergent the first time and maybe after a couple weeks, I would just float the oil off out the skim port a couple times in between.

As the system runs it is going to bring more of the oils on the new pipe and joint compound down in to the boiler with the condensate. If it was surging it will throw the oil from the boiler up in to the system with the water and the steam and condensate will have to bring that back down in to the boiler before you can remove it.

I doubt the house got below 55 much with nights in the 30's and it is unlikely anything would have frozen.

ethicalpaul

That's all very well said, @mattmia2

I used TSP (or TSP-substitute possibly, they are marketing them weirdly around here) just once and that removed almost all the oil.

After that I skimmed a few more times just for good measure but I never had any surging after that first run (except when I did it on purpose later).

mattmich

Today I finally had time to add the washing soda — six ounces for my boiler.
Then I skimmed at a speed that was something like one hour to fill a bucket nearly full, and I kept at it for about 90 minutes.

Then I emptied the boiler and piping completely, per the manufacturer's instructions, and refilled with fresh water, so as to get rid of the detergent.

And as the evening got cool, the heat came on, and the water in the sight glass bounced about one half inch peak-to-peak. Which is to be expected with fresh water, and we'll see what happens after the condensate has the chance to bring back some oil out of the piping, but I'm encouraged.

Before this session, the water level would recede down the sight glass by about 4 gallons, and then the water would periodically reappear. I'll update here over time.

Thanks for everyone's responses. It's good to know that my travails are not unusual, and I'm encouraged byt he progress.

EDIT: I should add that I put a piece of string with weights at both ends in the pipe and hung it down into the bucket. This helps keep the water on track at low flow and cuts down on noise.

cheers -m

mattmia2

you can put an ell on the valve too.

mattmich

Meh. I put a short nipple and a cap, and tighten them by hand and without tape.
Then I skim as shown, and it works well and is quiet.

mattmich

Thank You Very Much to everyone who responded and helped me through this. This site is a wonderful resource, without which I wouldn't have even started the job.
cheers -m

JakeCK

Any pictures of the final product from a few feet back?

mattmich

Not much has changed since the middle of page 3 of this thread — September 23rd 10:14 a.m. but you have to mouse-over to see it. there are no post #s here, which is unusual.Here are some pictures from yesterday.

mattmich

I'm running the heat now for the first time in a few days — it's been warm.
The living room was down to 62 degrees and I set the thermostat for 65.

I've got my phone in the basement, broadcasting via a zoom session.
At the time this screen shot was taken, we'd been running for 50 continuous minutes — minus any cyclegard breaks, natch! — and a good two gallons of water have gone missing.

The water in the sight glass is bouncing about an inch — roughly a gallon — peak-to-peak.
Radiators are getting nice and hot, all the way across.

It's now been an hour, and the heat is still going. At this point, I'd expect to cycle on pressure, but I haven't seen it yet.

[5 min later]
So I went to the basement and the heat was off — but it was only the cyclegard doing it's thing. The thermostat only read 64 degrees, but with all radiators hot, I know the temperature will keep rising and turned the heat off.

So far so good.
Now comes the balancing, and adding more venting to the main.

cheers -m

mattmia2

i don't know if that has wet or dry returns or of it is counterflow but some boiler drains at the far ends and some flushing could clean up that water. the surging is carrying more crud from the piping back to the boiler too.

mattmich

Well that is fresh water from last Sunday, following a skimming with washing soda. It's run a handful of times since then; it was warm from Tuesday until Friday. I reckon I can repeat the skimming/exchanging until the water stays clean.

The only other thing I can think of is add Rectorseal to get the pH where the rust slows down. Any other tips are welcome. So far I've skimmed three times, once with detergent.

#ijustworkhere

cheers -m

delcrossv

Try flushing again and adding a little 8way. Just enough to get your pH to 10 or so.

trivetman

Go real slow adding the 8-way. Too much can lead to water that foams up and you’ll have to drain it all (ask me how I know!). You’ll probably want way less than the directions on the bottle.

Test the ph with litmus paper to measure the impact. I had a problem when the ph got up to 10. Get it up to something just over 9 and call it done. The ph testing isn’t precise so its hard to know exactly where you are.

and wait on the 8 way till youve skimmed and flushed some more. Looks like you might have a ways to go till the water cleans up

mattmia2

The rust from the boiler and new piping will more turn the water orange, all the particulate is old stuff that has collected in the system and is getting washed back to the boiler. I'm sure @clammy mentioned flushing the returns in a difficult to decipher comment somewhere in these 4 pages. He will also say to put some tees on the boiler connections so you can stick a piece of tubing on a hose through the sections and flush the rust out of the boiler.

mattmich

The weather cooled down again, and I observed the water line receding a good three gallons worth again during a heat cycle this past week.

So last night I skimmed a fourth time, thoroughly. Musta poured two Home Depot bucket's worth of water out. Also I've been dumping brown rusty water out the bottom spigot a few times; a good pint every time before the water runs clear. I want to get to clean water and then set the pH.

Immediately following last night's skim, the water line only dipped a gallon, at most. Three heat cycles later, it's a gallon and a half, which tells me that we're still washing out oil from the system, but the problem is diminishing. Like the man said above: "When I am finished!"

On my earlier thread, @Steamhead had said, about my 80 ft long 2-1/2" main:

"Don't even think about Hoffman main vents. They're way too small. On that main I'd use two Gorton #2 vents. " [Aug 24]

So I ordered a couple Gortons form supplyhouse, but one of them was defective, and I found that Maidomist also sells main vents, surprisingly cheap, with a "D" orifice, approx 3/16 in diameter. So I installed one this morning — see below. Please advise if you see an issue. I haven't run the heat since; it's sunny out.

I have no complaints at the moment; the job is now about balancing the venting, and I'm making progress. The next step will be an wireless-enabled thermostat, but I want to stay away from the big tech companies, so no Siri or Alexa for me, thank you. Any recommendations? Ecobee gets mentioned a lot.

Oh, and I bought a Varivent radiator vent and found I could have saved my money. On the lowest setting it lets more air through than a MoM #4, which is already too fast.

cheers -m

delcrossv

I have MoM main vents on a 2flat I service. Been working fine for 5 years now.

mattmia2

look to honeywell or white rodgers which is now emerson for thermostats. if the thermostat is findable beyond your internal network it has to connect to some external service, not that i recommend either.

ethicalpaul

a #4 is not too fast , ever

MoM makes a #1 main vent, it’s just like the Gorton, same size as D but with better thread sizing for a main. Not sure who copied who.

Two #2 on one main is an awful lot of venting in a residence