completely sooted up heat exchanger and combustion chamber. what do you do?
Hi ,
I have a customer whose heat exchanger and combustion chamber are complety sooted up with black smoke coming out of chimney… In my experience the ony way to "hit the reset button" on these kind of jobs is rip out combustion chamber and replace and to first power wash sections with water till sections are clean, change nozzle filter clean burner all up and return to manufacturer specs, but its an expensive job.. (this what happens sometimes when customer doesnt do an annnual vac and tune for 10 years) I told customer i can ask if others would only vacuum sections and do minimal cleanup of burner which would cost less. To me its not the correct job, what do you think?
Thx
Joseph Hardoon
HHI Services LLC
Comments
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I'm with you, @Joseph_4 . Do it right, or don't do it at all.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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I don't see any reason to rip out the combustion chamber unless it is falling apart. Clean the boiler start and combustion test. Clean flue pipe and check chimney and burner end cone. They don't have to be spotless to run ok.
Power washing sections can destroy any sealing material between the sections
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@EBEBRATT-Ed..Even if the chamber is pitch black all around? I find brushes alone when so full of soot doesnt get all the soot out?
Joe
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Obviously, it's up to the customer. Unless you are going all in, 100%, you need to give customers a disclaimer that you are doing an incomplete job. And you need to address underlying reason that it sooted up. Was it just lack of maintenance or was it improperly set up...?
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Its hard to say what the underlying reason is when they tell you they have done zero maitenance in 10 years.. all could have been well but too much soot in passage ways maybe something fell on nozzle and affected spray pattern etc.. you try to be a detective but there is guess work involve. im sure ther are people out there who do no maintence nd this hasnt happened to them
thx
Joe
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This, @Joseph_4 . I like to have a chamber kit with me when I go to service a boiler for the first time, but I only use it if the existing one is unusable. This has saved many a trip to the supply house in the middle of the job.
If the burner has an old 3-wire primary it gets replaced, and an oil delay valve added if there isn't one, with a proper pre-purge interval. This brings the control system into the 21st century and makes it run cleaner.
In this situation I tell the customer that I'll do whatever it takes to make it run properly, and even though regular maintenance is necessary, they shouldn't have to spend much money in subsequent years.
What boiler and burner are you working with here?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting2 -
You really should return everything to manufacturer's specs (nozzle, air settings..) and do proper combustion testing, smoke test... Otherwise, you are sort of shooting in the dark. And again, it's really up to the customer. Short of doing an absolutely perfect job, there are no guarantees. If the customer doesn't want to pay for that, then give them the disclaimers and do your thing. How old is the boiler?
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of course even regular brush cleaning was going to do as you said just you cant vacuum the combustion chamber…. they get brittle over time… so wanted to know if everyone would replace seems from here not so
Joe
Its a slantfin not a relic
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Obviously if the chamber is deteriorated or crumbling it needs to be replaced. If you can vac the soot off it without damaging it leave it alone. The soot will burn off when you start it.
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I've never heard of anyone power washing the sections and the chamber of a little residential boiler because it sooted up, seems a bit ridiculous. A thorough brushing and vacuuming should do the job just fine, it doesn't need to be like new. I would also junk any 3 wire primary controls and add an oil pump with a solenoid valve. It should be really easy to figure out why it sooted up once you combustion test the boiler. Use the correct nozzle, (I think its a .65 80W for that boiler) make sure the flame retention head is spotless, adjust the barometric damper to -.02" overfire and adjust the air band and shutter to achieve a true zero smoke and you should be good to go. I wouldn't touch the chamber liner unless it's falling apart.
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Assuming a Beckett AFG burner, it's 1.50x80B at 100 PSI. I'm pretty sure that's a TR-40 boiler. @Joseph_4 , can we get a pic of the burner?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Power wash? It's not a saturation, right? Dry soot? If it's dry, it won't be bad. Have a few vac bags, and keep the vac filter clean. Nylon brushes and a soot sword. If the chamber is damaged or collapsed, then of course new. Otherwise be gentle with it. Maybe a new kaowool blanket.
Brush and vac. Repeat as long as it takes. Wet soot is not what you want.
I believe S/F has a tongue and groove for the draft hood, and 2 wing nuts. Make sure it's a good seal or line it with kaowool gasket.
Assuming it will need a good chimney sweep too, at bare minimum. Possibly a liner.
All that back pressure, make sure the air tube and head didn't warp. And the electrodes didn't crack.
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I appreciate all the feedback. In reponse to SuperTec saying powerwashing is ridiculous, I work more on Gas boilers than oil.. Ive cleaned many carbonized gas boilers (not common in the life of boiler but if they were doing construction or its near a dryer its happens ) When i clean brushed alone the problem has come back on me more than once..However, when i use a garden hose spray (I didnt mean 1500 psi Machine) rather at 55-60 psi from regular hose the problem doesnt come back once I set everything up.. so I brought this over my to oil jobs where they completely soot up. not a regular tune up.
Anyways, most here feel to try and clean without changing chamber. My goal is to give my customers best bang for buck…without changing chamber will be less than half the charge.. i will give him the options and tell him what almost all here feel to try and minimally clean chamber as well.will bring up to factory specs do combustion analysis and just tell him i feel there is a small risk may come back.. if it does than i will do full out job
thx for all responses
Joe
HHI Services
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@Joseph_4 , if the firebox refractory is in bad shape, it will have to be replaced no matter the cost. You may not know this until you start working. Slant/Fin is out of business, unfortunately, but I think you can get a chamber kit from R.E.Michel or Sid Harvey.
Assuming that's a TR-40 with an AFG, I'd use a 1.25x80B nozzle at 140 PSI. This will give the same firing rate but produce better atomization, which will help with the poor fuel quality we encounter sometimes.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@ Steamhead, Thank you… plan to work on it tommorow, will do what the boiler needs, when i see the condition of chamber etc.. thanks for the info, very much appreciated
Joe
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Lynn Products may have a chamber.
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That's the vendor R.E. Michel uses, and I believe Sid's too.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
This sounds like a normal day at work when I was in my 20's. If you do not have a SootVac and the proper boiler brushes, then you are not properly equipped for the job. You may not need a new chamber. you will not know until you remove the soot and look at the condition of the chamber. spray with water is a last resort. Vacuum cleaning is the first choice.
That happens because of insufficient combustion air. find out why there is insufficient combustion air then you can tackle the plugged boiler.
I have done my fair share of soot plugged boilers.
- step one is to remove the soot with brushes and a vacuum. open us the vent pipe and disassemble the boiler to access the soot.
- vacuum the soot that is easy to remove, them brush thru the flue passages of the boiler with a brush in your right hand and the vacuum hose following in your left hand.
- once all the soot is gone, use the vacuum to carefully remove as much soot as possible from the chamber.
- If you are going to do the other normal maintenance on the burner, this is the time to complete that, now that all the soot is gone. replace nozzle, clean assembly and end cone, replace oil filter adjust electrodes and all the other 16 things that you might do on a tune up.
- once everything is put back together, you can now fire the burner. this will burn off any soot in the chamber or heat exchanger that you may have missed while vacuuming. To burn off this soot and get the interior of the combustion to a soot free condition, you must open the air adjustment to allow copious amounts of excess air in the chamber to burn off that soot. It may take about 15 minutes of constant burning so make previsions for the burner to have the longest cycle as possible. this may include using a much smaller nozzle firing rate so the heat exchanger does not over heat and cycle on the high limit.
When you are ready to leave the burner operating, make sure that you set the burner with combustion instruments to get a zero smoke. You may want to revisit the burner in a day or so to see that is is still burning properly.
If you didn't find the reason for insufficient combustion air, then you will be back doing the same thing again and again.
It could be the air adjustment was wrong to begin with, or perhaps animal hair and household dust has accumulated on the air intake and burner fan. Another problem could be that the burner is in a confined space. that can happen after a homeowner refinished the basement and leaves the burner in a small coset without considering louvers or outdoor air intake to allow for combustion air. whatever the case may be, the heater needs to breathe
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@Ed The Heater Man… Doing this for 17 years (im sure you have more years than me) have soot vacuums soot saws combustion analyzer etc..
Can you explain to me if you feel there is a difference between these 2 situations..
Why is it that in my experiences by Gas boilers that have been carbonized that there have been multiple customers where heat exchanger is fully blackened b/c of say construction sheetrock dust affecting the gas to air ratio.. that bad combustion deposits black carbon particles on heat exchanger until eventually completly clogging heat exhanger and using an analyzer the CO goes up into the 1000s immedietely. that i have been called to clean some work with brushes and soot vac… but after having it happen to me on 3 different customers that the boilers recarbonized very quickly.. all of them, then used garden hose sprayer from water heater and cleaned as good as new…. The problem NEVER reoccured and brough CO to between 0 and 100ppm
I NEVER clean carbonized gas boilers without water anymore… Its a waste of time
By oil boilers— Not by regular vac and tune… but, When you get a customer such as the beginning of this post who has done no maintenance for 10 years and everything is clogged and combustion chamber completly blackened by physical soot that has more substance than black carbonized gas boilers
will take a solid 2 to 3 hours to even vac and tune change nozzle open up combustion chamber to clean and set all back to factory specs, why are you not worried residual soot particles may fall onto nozzle, affect spray pattern and cause all to reoccur. ( replacing the chamber and using water adds about an hour and1/2 to the regular job and the cost of a combustion chamber) with preparing the area cleaning up bringing down tools add at least an hour to either job
Though the consensus of most here Do feel that its enough to do a regular vac and tune with brushes. Now all the black soot cant be vacuumed off combustion chamber ( although I have seen the power of the flame hitting target wall clean sightlt blackened heat exchangers)
It seems that the nature of carbonized gas boilers and blackened oil boilers from lack of maintence are not to be treated the same
What do you think?
Thx
Joe
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Actually, I didnt see the end of your post that you say it will be cleaned from "burning it off"
Maybe Gas b/c doesnt have power flame its just different.
Either way, as stated previous day. im going there tommorow and will be trying to get by with regular vac and tune
thx again for all who posted
Joe
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Keep us posted.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
so here are the findings and results so far
a Steamhead surmised it is a Liberty Slantfin L-40 and does require a 1.50 80B (L-40 i believe was later changed to TR its same model) nozzle if using Delevan. I found a 1.25 60w in there. After cleaning it put in correct nozzle pump pressure was correctly set at 100 psi. Not sure why person before me underfired it, (although boiler IS oversized for this house)
After cleaning up Burner .. fired up. CO right now is high 700 ppm feel needs to burn off a lot of dirt still. going back tommorow. My tech only used brushes and soot vac and im happy with results
Here are some before and after pics together
thx Joe
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@Joseph_4 that burner does not appear to be the one specified for that boiler. It looks like a Beckett AFG with a V1 adjustable head. The Beckett OEM Spec Guide shows fixed-head burners for these units- the ones with the typical "F" designations. The L/LD/TR-40 spec shows an AFG with a F120 head and the usual 2-3/4" static plate.
This would explain your issue. Fixed-head Beckett AFG burners generally use 80° nozzles, but adjustable-head ones generally use 60° nozzles. If you use an 80° nozzle in a Beckett adjustable head, you'll get lousy combustion and the head will coke up.
Try this: Replace the nozzle with a 1.25x60B nozzle at 140 PSI. Make sure the head is adjusted properly, as outlined on page 11 of the manual, here:
Then tune it again. If I had any money I'd bet the CO goes down and you get a CO2 of at least 11% with zero smoke.
If the flame slams the target wall, go to a 1.25x60W which will produce a shorter flame, and tune it again.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Thanks So Much, I had it in my hand so i know you are correct it said V1. I tried to verify with oem guide at the site but didnt see it specifed on burner. beckett's sticker had the serial number but didnt specify the items as you quoted from the oem guide.. You saved me a great deal of time tommorow. will let you know what happens. Maybe that explains why the guy before put in a 1.25 60w exactly as you are saying to do.. The psi though was at 100 i will put up to 140 as you are saying
thx
Joe
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Agree that a Gas carbonized boiler and an oil heat sooted boiler should be treated differently. Especially since the atmospheric gas burners can not be made to induce excess air to clean up any carbon that you miss on the brush and vac of plugged HX the same way that you can with a power burner, like oil burners and conversion gas burners
Isn't interesting that Gas Boilers don't "soot up" but they carbonize! I guess that is because Gas Companies try to tell everyone that Gas burns Cleaner than oil. LOL!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I guess that is because Gas Companies try to tell everyone that Gas burns
Cleanerthan oil.
Well, it does.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
@ethicalpaul , I don't disagree, I just think it is funny that when a gas boiler "soots up" it is called "Carbonized" and when an oil boiler "Carbonizes" it is called "Soots Up"…
Carbonized is just a clean way of saying the the boiler is dirty with soot. But it is clean soot like Carbonized Water is usually clear water with a High Carbon dioxide content. Crystal clear carbon in the water! So that boiler soot, in a Gas fired boiler, must be much cleaner soot! LOL
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
As far as the picture of the combustion chamber is concerned, that one looks fine and does not need to be replaced.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
If it heats up too fast, try a 1.10x60B @ 140 PSI. And whichever you use, put a label on the burner showing the nozzle size and pump pressure, so the next person will know.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@steamhead.. i put in the 1.10B and moved pump pressure up to 140 psi as you mentioned this am. 02 is high around 7.8-8 with Air band at only 1. I see gaps around burner door im sure its sucking in air from there as well. The C0 is stable at around 160 ppm.. Old ansi standards allowed up to 400ppm in flue.. (im not talking in the room, the room is zero) I like to get it below 50 ppm for gas in flue. Oil usually lower but its stable enough. The Tennant is planning on moving out in a few months and the smoke is at a trace to none. I happy to leave him this way. With everyone's advice, we saved him a lot of Money and its safe for the condition of this boiler. Landlord is knocking down house when he moves out. so we will have him moniter , Tennant away for 2 weeks so leaving boiler off, will revisit and retest a week after he comes home (provide domestic hot water as well). willmhave him install co detectors at bottom of basement stairs
thx for all thehelp
Joe
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Have him install at least one low level CO detector
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will do!
thx
Joe
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Be sure to salvage the radiators!
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0
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