Older Weil McLain boiler; fire box corrosion

There's been a little progress here and there.
I'm not disengaging, I just don't want to drip and drab small bits of information and waste everyone's time.
Let me go in order.

@ChrisJ
» Is there a reason you're not up to installing the new one yourself?

I've tackled "pro" jobs before, and while I've generally been successful, they've all been serious time sinks. Sometimes DIY is best, like window replacement or when I laid a natural slate floor in the kitchen. Electrical work is somewhat straightforward, and household plumbing jobs, too. Just slow.

The chimney repair I farmed out, dto. the floor refinishing — and I'm glad I did. 25 years and looks as good as then. The trick is finding the RIGHT professional. I'll come to that.

This boiler job is up there. There is the weight, there is the zero experience — case in point: Holohan says the main vent should be 15" back from the downward elbow ("revisited", p. 133). I did find the explanation, picture and all, p. 188. Just reading through all the material takes time. "Takes" time, not "wastes" time. It's actually an interesting subject.

But my vent is 5" from the elbow. Do I have to move it? Do I just add a longer nipple? That's what I would do, but a pro knows this stuff, and I'm guessing.

I haven't excluded DIY but I'd much rather pay the money and keep the three weeks of vacation I'd have to invest. "Know thyself" — I get OCD on stuff.

The only reason it's even an option is you-all. I do appreciate the help and support.

-Matt

@Steamhead:

» That vent is either a Hoffman #5 or #6. It might have been OK for a coal-fired boiler but not for oil or gas.

Good eye, I suppose — I haven't checked for the marks on the vent.
But you nailed it: this house used to be heated with coal. Which in 1929 was to be expected.

Today, one of my plumber friends at work came through with a plumber's name and number. I chatted with the gentleman over the phone a bit. It went okay.

Good: from mentioning the "Dan Hollohan" book, he knew what I was talking about and said he had and had read the book, but not the 'revisited' version. I asked him about a recent boiler job, and he said, a couple months ago.. when I dug a little more, meaning STEAM boiler, then he said it had been a couple years, which when I say it means, like 2019.

Not so good: As a Litmus test, I showed him a picture of my boiler with the copper piping, from above in the thread. He was not bothered by the copper piping, nor by the opposing pipes — he called it, "deadheading", which I believe is the proper term. This was considered a No-No by the members here as well as in the book, so it gives me pause.

Here I am, with eight hours of book reading and fifteen hours on the internet — am I now a youtube-certified™ steam fitter? Should I disagree with a professional?

On the other hand, I can't ignore what I've learned, especially when it makes sense to me.

I'm inclined to ask my new friend — who works for a good-sized firm; they do work for my employer — for an estimate. It would allow me to pick his brain a bit about replacement boiler sizing, and if that sounds good….

Just looking at the main as it goes around the basement, it looks just like the book says it should, with the 45 degree angle as the steam pipes branch off and good insulation everywhere.

I just measured the overall drop in the main — it's 12 inches, and as I wrote above, the total length is about 80 feet — so for a parallel-flow system we need 1 inch per ten feet, and that's about what we have, given that the condensate return slopes a little more at the very end. So whoever did this originally musta read a book, too.

So I'm thinking this is not that complicated a job, because the basics are presumably OK. I've not had problems with spitting vents, or radiators not getting hot.
The old boiler would run on a really cold day for 30-40 minutes on and 1 hour off. I kept book on this one Saturday in January when it was in the single digits.

For good measure, I wrote a request for a steam expert on the "FRIEND'S of Michigan Steam Engine & Threshers Club Group." [apostrophe included]… but I haven't gotten anything back beyond a couple of thumbs up ;)

I'll stop here. Any thoughts will be appreciated.
-Matt

» Or try some of the local supply houses to see if they know someone.

…and that was exactly my plan for this week.

There's a wholesale only place where I've gotten parts on a friend's account...they should know someone.

@JakeCK
» I can not express how much I want the next picture you post showing us nothing but the stains on the concrete from where this one stood.

There's been progress in that direction.
I got the middle sections upstairs in the garage, might get help for the heavier pieces.

I have a recommended plumber coming tomorrow morning.
My idea is to have him look at the system and tell me what he wants to do, and why, and take notes.

I have some specific ideas for proper piping, and to get the main vent moved away from the down elbow, to have everything as close to the manufacturer's instructions and "best practice" rules. I think I'd like a drop header.

I talked to a second gentleman on the phone, and while he saw no problem with my colliding header either ("That's how it's done") but he otherwise seemed to know what he was talking about. As a bonus, he installed a boiler in an appartment building two months ago.

He asked about the number of burner tubes on my old boiler (7) and put the size at 150 MBTU/hour ("it's at least 15 per tube, but usually 20") and made the off-hand suggestion of installing 120 MBTU/h ("they're usually oversized.")

I may disagree with the methodology but the answer was the same I got going through the steps. I didn't go into it over the phone.

After tomorrow, I'll schedule a visit for the second guy, and depending on the proposals, think about going to the "steam show" at the county fair grounds next weekend. From the pictures, these guys are all 80 years old, though.

-Matt

Minor update. I've had a 'corporate' guy come by Monday; he'll send me a proposal. Wants to do another McLain, which is fine by me, and has agreed to do the piping to manufacturer's specs. He was sizing the boiler by "old boiler - 1" and wasn't really interested in EDR. But in general he did seem to know his stuff and was the proper age, but of course when it comes time to do the job, he'll send a couple younger guys. Which is understandable but I like to know up front who I'm dealing with. Haven't had a proposal yet.

The second gentleman came Monday evening; he's on his own and brings in help as needed. Same thing with the boiler sizing, though when I showed him my calculations, he was receptive. But on the proposal it says "all piping in copper" which does not give me the warm fuzzies. We did talk about that, or at least I did.

This morning I called a second corporate firm. They have a guy, and he can come by to look at my situation… in early September. Heating season starts in October, so that's cutting it way too close.

And then I called a fourth person, and I'm feeling good about him. Has the full set of Holohan books, and a Dead Men sticker on his truck. He's the first person who wants to size the boiler to the EDR. He's even close, not a ten minute drive from my house. I'll see him on Monday.

-Matt

@ChrisJ
» What's your total installed EDR?

As orginally installed, 476 square feet + 141 square feet of piping, ignoring the near-boiler stuff.

As we now run it, 345 sq ft — I just discovered yesterday, when checking the radiator shutoff valves, that the one in the downstairs hallway (30 sq ft) was actually disconnected from the piping, and not by me. We've never used it, because the dining room radiator is five feet from it, and I wasn't even aware. Beautiful system, it just worked ;)

@ChrisJ
» But what happened to all of these radiators?

There are 14 branches off the main. Of these, 10 are still active.
The "canceled" radiators are:
- one unit in the kitchen under the window. Never saw it; it was gone by 1997, branch is capped.
- a radiator in the attic, 50 square ft, valved off.
- a radiator in my upstairs office/sleeping porch, removed during a down-to-the studs renovation. 51 sq ft.
- the hallway radiator, removed and not properly reinstalled during floor refinishing. 30 sq. ft.

None of these are missed due to the much improved insulation.

-Matt

I have mentioned that three contractors who came to bid on the job… that doesn't count the "other" large local firm that does boilers; they could send their guy out to take a look .. in early September. No thanks.

Contractor #1 came through with a proposal today. He's with a large firm, and he's indicated he's willing to work with me on the details. I'll spell it out below.

Contractor #2 sent a quote quickly. I know we're not supposed to discuss numbers here, but I think it's OK to day I wasn't too pleased when he quoted one number during the visit, and went up nearly three grand overnight. But it was kind of where I expected it; roughly twice the cost of a boiler if I bought it. Which sounds about right to me. It takes a lot of investment before someone is ready to do a job like this.
The deal breaker here is "piping will be done in copper" like we hadn't even spoken the day before.

Proposal #1 was, surprisingly, approximately the same amount as #2, it just took a week to get it.
It reads, "Installation of 1-Burnham model PIN6NI-HEZ pacakage steam boiler, 175 MBH input. Provided with low water cutoff and damper. Near boiler piping will be replaced. Boiler will be delivered unassembled and will be built on site. Pricing will also include permit cost, removal and disposal of old unit."

It's light on details, but I think the price is fair, I like that it's a Burnham, and I really like that there's a company behind it with a deep bench and an on-call policy. I'm not always home, and Madame is happier with a number to call.

I had a brief exchange with the gentleman and he thought going down one size in the boiler would not be a problem. This Burnham (6 sections) is almost an exact replacement of the capacity of my EG-50 (5 sections, 7 burner tubes). I'll be better off with a smaller unit.

My question to the experts: Does that sound right? Should I push for a pre-assembled unit? Should I go with a SteamMax rather than the old Independence unit?

Should I specify the near-boiler piping kit that Burnham sells? Should I push for a drop header? I'm not worried about a few hundred dollars extra, or a couple grand, if that's what it takes for a first-rate job.

On timing, he said that "quickest he could get the boiler is the last week of August; installing takes 3-4 days, could be done that week of first week in September." That sounds reasonable.

I'm inclined to go with these guys.
Thanks as always for the interest and the support.
-Matt

@ethicalpaul, @ChrisJ

» back ordered until September though 😅

Ya I noticed that, too. So quickly we can go from all-the-time-in-the-world to hair-on-fire.

Were it just me, I'd risk it and plumb in an EG=40 myself.

But it ain't, and having a good-sized company with a call-in policy is great for those times when I'm on travel and the missus has to deal with a failure. That's a big part of it right there.

They've already agreed to go from an Independence 6-section to a 5-section model, good for 358 sq ft EDR, so I am going to go that route. I was pleasantly surprised by the pricing, the money is in the checking account, and every time I pull on a short, my shoulder reminds me that it didn't like hauling the old boiler sections out of the basement. I'm not fifty any more ;)

I will try to pursuade them to change two things: (i) to buy the packaged boiler, since the IN5I will actually fit through all doors, at 21 inches wide. And (ii) to install a drop header, or at least just buy the Burnham piping kit and install it.

Once it's installed and working like it did with the old one, I'll swap out all the old radiator vents and set the system up properly.

I might add that this is not the ONLY thing that needs fixin' at my house, plus there's that pesky day job that keeps making demands on my time…

-Matt