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80°F when set to 70°F @ 107°F outside: dual zone mitsubishi heat pumps

2

Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,537

    What’s missing in all this is an accurate Manual J calculation for YOUR house. You can’t compare YOUR house to someone else’s - even a similar one in the same neighborhood.

    What also factors in is YOUR particular lifestyle. I have had some customers that were so bent on trying to operate the system the way they wanted that it caused it not to perform sufficiently even though it was sized correctly. I’m not saying that about you necessarily, but it can be a factor.

    As Jamie said, you really need to find someone who not only understands the system, but who can also do an accurate heat gain (Manual J) calculation.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    TeemokPC7060
  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 671
    edited July 8

    I'm not a fan of matching ridiculous heating and cooling loads with brute capacity. It's just not smart. Your 2500 sqft house shouldn't need more than 5 tons. If it really does need more than 5 tons, it shouldn't take a Manual J to see why. Not that I think a Manual J is an unnecessary thing. If the systems are working as designed and your structure is a sieve, the fix is clear. If your structure is typical and the systems are not set up correctly ,that can be an easy fix. If the new duct work has flaws or the evacuation process was done poorly or something else, that can be a bigger problem. It could be all or a combo of the above. If the installer needs some consult help have them call me, I'm close by.

    IronmanPC7060
  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @DCContrarian We have micro-climates all along the coast of California. All depends on how much exposure a city has to fog/wind blowing from the coast. I agree with @bburd that those design temperatures are absurd.

    When choosing weather stations, most sites want to default to Santa Rosa which is 15 miles south but has a break in the mountains so is much cooler.

    Here's the actual weather from July 2023 for Healdsburg. Nine days above 100F.

    https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/healdsburg/95448/july-weather/337078?year=2023

  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @EBEBRATT-Ed Yes, we prefer the house at 75F. However when set that high, the house reaches 85F when it's 100F outside. So we set to 70F to give the house a head start in keeping cool. Actually the recommendation from our HVAC company.

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,233

    You guys have some wild weather! If @Teemok is offering consulting assistance I would definitely pursue that option!

    Teemok
  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @DCContrarian Yes, a local family HVAC company was recently purchased and we heard only bad reviews. So we avoided them and chose one where the son is taking over from the father+mother.

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,233

    Are you running heat during those low temp hours? and if so is it from the same unit or do you have a separate heating source?

  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,261

    You don't have something crazy going on, like a supply duct in the wall behind the thermostat or air from a supply register hitting it?

    Seen it before and it really messes with the system.

    GGrossbburd
  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @PC7060 This is our current insulation. Is this cellulose?

    I should add that I've used a heat sensing gun to measure the temp of our ceiling vs walls. Walls and ceiling are same so hard to believe ceiling insulation is the issue any more than the walls.

  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @GGross Our heat pump's thermostat doesn't support auto-heat/cool so we manually adjust it to one or the other. So it's either set to cool or heat and only 1-2 times per year would we ever cool then heat during the same day.

  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @Harvey Ramer The thermostat is not in site of any ducts and all ducts are in the attic, away from thermostat.

  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,261
  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    @Harvey Ramer All ducts were new R8 and inspected. No leaks or kinks.

    Based on discussion above, seems system is undersized for the high temps in Healdsburg combined with high humidity.

    Teemok
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 663

    I put Ukiah, which is the hottest of the local weather stations, into weather.com. Fifteen days above 100F for the month of July, 114F on July 6. Yet the design temperature is 97F there.

    There is a reason that reporters use the word "historic" in news stories about the heat wave hitting California right now.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 663

    Let me ask this: the house was built in the 1980's. Did it have a cooling system? What was that like? How was your comfort? How much of the old system was kept, like ductwork, and how much is new?

  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,261

    What type of air filters do you have?

    You should run the system for a day with them removed and see what happens.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,364

    All it would take is one leaking or disconnected duct to completely mess this system up.

    Maybe they checked the supply ducts but a leaking or disconnected return is just as bad.

    5 ton for 2500 sq ft should not be acting this way IMHO

    Harvey Ramer
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,261

    I have found a lot of duct problems in attics. Both new and old. Typically on the underside or backside where you can't see it and it's super difficult to seal. A 2"x20" gap will cost you a lot of money over 15yrs.

  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,384

    Can it be that condenser fan runs too slowly or that there's airflow obstruction around the unit?

    I've seen large air-cooled installations use air cooled water coolers/water cooled condensers because a directly air cooled condenser would be too large.

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 671

    It can be a ton of things! (no pun). Trouble shooting and complete system verification take concern, skill and time. Things many workers don't have for understandable and varying reasons. Greed and inexperience are a hell of a combo. I'm not saying that's what this is but I've seen it more than once before.

    GGrossIronman
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,427

    looks like standard fiberglass, when was the house built?

    I would seal penetrations and blow more insulation over it.

    JakeCK
  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    Thanks for everyone's feedback. @Teemok offered his expertise for a firsthand view and opinion of our HVAC challenge. Will schedule time for him to visit then we can report back.

    dkoIronman
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,477

    Yea thats blown fiberglass. Just install more blown fluffy insulation over top of it. It'll be fine.

    PC7060
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,477

    I disagree. Everyone is different. From skinny as twig to as heavy as a sumo wrestler. From those who wear a hoodie in the summer to those who can shovel a foot of snow in January in a short sleeve shirt(points to self).

    I don't handle heat well unless I'm sitting, doing absolutely nothing on a tropical beach with a cold drink under a palmtree. But while I hate the cold I'm particularly adapt at tolerating it. And after a long day/night in an unconditioned building at work, when I walk in the front door I want to see penguins playing poker with Frosty in my living room. Period, end of story.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,364

    @JakeCK

    That is fine. But look in any AC design books and I have never seen an AC design at 70 degrees.

  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,477
    edited July 10

    So your point is? Just because someone decided at some time that keeping a building at 70 or lower is unnecessary and put it in a design book, it means its not possible? Or that someone, regardless of how much money they're willing to spend is not going to get it? If a potential customer with a fat wallet calls you up and says I need a new AC, the one most important stipulation is that it MUST hold 70 even on a 120f day are you gonna say "nope, can't do it. This book here says you don't need that"?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,364

    If you have good humidity control you don't need the temperature that low for comfort cooling. I have only seen lower temps in computer rooms and process spaces. I never said it couldn't be done. They have freezers after all.

    We are supposed to be saving energy after all.

    LRCCBJ
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,224

    if you want the space maintained at 75, really no advantage to setting the thermostat to 70. It will not speed up the cooling.

    The structure is what dictates the load on the heating or cooling system at any point in time.

    Maybe consider an energy audit including a blower door test. And an infrared scan of the structure

    Www.dsireausa.org is where you look for incentives or utility weatherazation

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    JakeCK
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,477

    50% RH is considered about optimal in a residential structure yes? Any lower and sinus issues and problems with electronics due to static, and of course the walking static furballs of death start to become a concern. Any higher and the risk of mold quickly skyrockets. I personally find a house @75f 50% RH uncomfortable. If someone tells me they like it at 68f i find that a perfectly reasonable temperature.

    Again it is their preference, if they are spending the money sell them what they want. If I walk into a grocery store and ask the butcher to slice up a Lb of ham, and he says "No, You only need 2/3lb." i'm gonna reply with oh, ok n/m and walk to the next deli.

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 671
    edited July 10

    A mini split system with it's factory thermostat does look the difference between set point and current measured temperatures. They are not on off systems and are programed for economy. I don't know the exact programing but they do back off as they approach set point and they are also slow to ramp to 100%. Some manufacturers had to put a "Turbo, Boost, Forceful" button on the remotes for US because, maybe we are a little impatient. We like to drag race to the next light.😎 I've measured 25-27F splits from ductless units. Never at measured at 107F OAT. I think you are right hot_rod when a standard on/off thermostat is used.

  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21

    I want to determine the actual Design Temperature for my city: Healdsburg, CA. I cannot find a site that lists "Design Temperature by City", however I did find this site which looks close:

    2022 Design Day Data for California Cities

    This page lists terms like 0.10% DB and 1% DB Cooling. Is one of these "design temperature" or can I calculate it using this data?

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 663

    The design temperature is the temperature that is hotter than 99% of the time in your location, so that would be the 1% column. DB stands for "dry bulb" and MCWB stands for "mean coincident wet bulb." Dry bulb temperature is what we think of normally as temperature. MCWB is the temperature that a thermometer reads when it is wrapped in wet cloth and subject to a stream of air. It is a measure of temperature and humidity. When water evaporates it absorbs heat from the environment and the area around is cooled. The more humid the air, the harder it is for evaporation to happen, so the higher the MCWB. The "coincident" in MCWB means that they measure the wet bulb at the same time as the dry bulb is at the 99% temperature. So basically it's the answer to the question, "when it gets real hot, what's the humidity like?" Humidity is important in the design of AC because the AC has to remove humidity as well as cool, and it takes cooling capacity to remove humidity.

    A MCWB of 68 is really low, humidity isn't an issue where you are.

    Your design temperature is 94F.

    biosopherEBEBRATT-EdIronmanPC7060
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 663

    Just as an aside, most places don't have 0.5% and 0.1% data. The rule of thumb I was taught was that there are 8760 hours in a year, so about 88 hours a year you'll be over your design temperature. Expect that half of those — 44 hours — will be one degree over, half of the remainder (22) will be two degrees over, half of the remainder of that (11) will be three degrees over, and so on.

    From the rule of thumb I would expect that the 0.5% temperature would be one degree above the 1% temperature. It is. I would expect that the 0.1% temperature would be 3 to 4 degrees above the 1% temperture. It isn't, it's a whopping 8F above it.

    biosopher
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 663

    The point is that AC systems have to be designed for particular parameters, if they are undersized or oversized they don't work so well. Most houses go through many occupants in their lifespans, they're designed for what a typical occupant will find comfortable.

    EBEBRATT-Ed
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,477

    That is fine. But if a new occupant doesn't like it and wants to spend the money to change the design parameters who are we to tell them otherwise?

    Thats my point.

    biosopher
  • biosopher
    biosopher Member Posts: 21
    edited July 10

    I hear lots of opinions about the current occupant so I'll try to rectify that. To start, I prefer my house at 75F and that's what it's ideally set at. In 2023 however, 12 days were above 100F with 3 days above 105F.

    So…my HVAC guy recommended that I keep my setting to 70F on hot days.

    When set to 75F, my interior reaches 80F when it's 95F outside. Then when 105 outside, it's 85F inside. So when set to 70F, his thought was that my interior would start colder and reach only 75F inside when 95 outside and 80F when 105F outside. This has proven somewhat true.

    With my new fridge struggling to keep my food cool at 80F inside, I need to wonder "huh, I just replaced my fridge last year and that was expensive, maybe I should spend some $ to save $?"

    So why did I ask for advice on this forum? Having been in Healdsburg, CA for 20 years, each year has been progressively hotter so I asked my HVAC contractor to size my newly installed HVAC system to scale for the lifetime of the system which is ideally 10-15 years.

    Given my HVAC systems struggles now, and the contractor recommends spending $4K on insulation, I came here for advice on whether that $4k might better be spent on a larger outdoor unit.

  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,261

    I happen to mostly agree. The onus is on the contractor to determine the expectations of the homeowner and clearly state what they can deliver and why.

    There is almost always a way to meet expectations if the homeowner is willing to pay for it. For example, parallel evaporator coils serving the same space work great for meeting high demands, and turning one off during partial loads provides great humidity control. S

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,777

    All this discussion about design conditions is fairly pointless—the numbers that were actually used are much more important, but I don't see them being all that important just yet. Can't feel much air moving??? That points at a performance issue, either a mechanical fault or installation deficiency, or perhaps a configuration issue?

    Properly done, insulation is always a good idea. Mini splits don't work like a regular split—they're not always going to be pumping out 55° air when they're cooling. That said, it gets hot in Asia too & I can't imagine that mini splits couldn't keep it chilly indoors even in 100° weather.

    GGross
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,233

    Like @ratio says I would be looking for something system related. Even though we don't have the firm load calc numbers here, you have 5 tons of cooling with a 2500 sqft house, its 95 out and can't maintain 75? there is something not right here. This type of issue is hard to diagnose without being able to inspect the duct system, the supplies and returns, and the functionality of the units themselves. Just to confirm, you aren't running a server farm or bitcoin operation out of this cooled space correct? not leaving windows and doors open? Normal sized windows? If I were you I would seek assistance from a different contractor who could come to your house to diagnose this, someone who is familiar with mini split air handler systems, and specifically your brand so they might be able to check the programming as well, though I doubt its that simple. Spending more on insulation wouldn't be a terrible idea, but I do not think that is the primary issue here. Adding larger outdoor units wouldn't help if the duct system can't support them.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 663

    "When set to 75F, my interior reaches 80F when it's 95F outside. "

    Considering that your design temperature is 94F, this indicates a problem. Either the system is not operating as designed, or it wasn't designed properly. Literally the standard for a HVAC system is being able to maintain 75F when the outside temperature is at the design temperature. That standard comes from Manual J of the Air Conditioning Contractors of America. Where you are, California, that is literally the law, as California has passed legislation that all HVAC systems have to be installed in accordance with Manual J.

    This isn't a legal advice forum, but at a certain point the expert you will need may be a lawyer.

    The solution to your problem isn't setting the thermostat lower, and it isn't really adding insulation. The fact that the installer suggested those things rather than actual fixes is telling.

    At this point you should be focused on diagnosing and documenting. Get an indoor/outdoor thermometer that has a logging capability, so you will have documentation that when the outdoor temperature is at the design temperature the system can't maintain 75F.

    While legally it's not your problem, it's probably to your benefit at this point to get an accurate diagnosis as to whether the system is not working as designed and needs to be fixed, or whether it is working as designed and wasn't designed properly. If it's the former there may be an easy fix, but if it's the latter your lawyer is going to have to get busy. So you need to bring in an independent expert to do an assessment. When talking to that person, tell him what you just said, that when it's 95F you can't maintain 75F indoors. Don't tell him about what happens when it's 107F outside, that's not the issue, that's a distraction, it took us two pages to get to the bottom here.

    Above I say that adding insulation isn't "really" the solution. If it turns out that the system you have is undersized, it may turn out that the most cost-effective way to mitigate that is to increase the insulation in the house. But if you come to that conclusion, that's the installer's problem: you paid him a not-insubstantial amount of money to install a system that works, and he didn't hold up his end of the bargain.

    LRCCBJ