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Converting from Forced Hot Air to Baseboard Hot Water...

stevetars
stevetars Member Posts: 14

Hi everyone,

New to the forum- I saw this discussion before, but I have some additional questions. Was hoping to get some insight.

I live in split-level with a single-zone combination forced hot air and central AC single stage system. System is about 20 years old and ready for replacement.

I have uneven heat throughout the home due to single zone and the AC never reaches the upstairs bedrooms in the summer. We just bought the home and noticed electric baseboard supplemental heat in the upstairs bedrooms and a supplemental wall AC unit in the third floor bedroom. To us this confirms that the forced hot air/AC system is not reaching the bedrooms adequately. Additionally, we get sinus infections much more often in the winter.

Most of the HVAC/Plumbers we had in are trying to push us just to replace the forced hot air/AC system in kind with a two-stage furnace and single stage AC system, but we think multi-zone baseboard hot water system would be better. My questions are-

  1. Should we make the switch? Is it worth it?
  2. If we do, should we keep the AC component of the forced hot air system and existing ductwork which is integral with the home and just add a window AC unit for bedrooms. This allows us to still have "central air" even if it is lackluster upstairs. However, this would require going around or moving a few registers up about four inches to accomodate the baseboard. Should we keep the ductwork?
  3. Or, should we abandon the ducts in the walls, seal the registers and go without central air for a while until we decide to install some mini-splits?

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Steve

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,161

    That's an odd one. The basic problem, though, is that with the heat and A/C from the existing system being that poorly balanced it is likely that the problem really is the existing ductwork (and probably a complete lack of proper returns). This makes any scheme trying to use the existing ductwork somewhat problematic, at least in my opinion.

    So… what climate zone are you in? If you are much south of say New York or Chicago, I might consider a fourth option to the ones you've mentioned: seal up the exisitng ductwork and go directly to mini-split heat pumps. Provided your minimum outdoor temperatues are reasonable, they can do the whole job quite well.

    Otherwise, if it were mine I'd go with your option 3 — and probably use the existing ductwork as much as possible to run the pipes.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,021

    a finished split level? Doesn't sound like an easy hydronic upgrade?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823
    edited March 2023

    I'd replace the AC when the time comes (a heat pump would work too) and use the electric baseboard with the furnace then go on an annual winter vacation with the money you've saved not adding hydronic baseboard :).

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796

    @Erin Holohan Haskell did this, and loves the result- maybe she'll chime in.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • stevetars
    stevetars Member Posts: 14
    edited March 2023

    Thanks everyone- I'm in NJ, so the winters can get pretty cold. We have had multiple professionals in to take a look and so far the leading quotes and suggestions look like this:

    1. Keep forced hot air, replace like for like, fix ductwork in basement (insulate and seal better) and add a three zone mini-split system in the upstairs- $-$ for forced hot air upgrade and $ for 3-zone mini split. Total roughly $
    2. Switch to hydronic baseboard heat//seal ductwork- $-$; we lose AC in the home if we seal the ductwork so we can either put in some window units or the quote for mini-split five zone for whole home was $ - total $

    Right now, since we are not big AC users, (really just in the bedrooms), we are leaning towards just spending the $ on option two since it's only about five grand more and we get five zones and consistent heat/even distribution, lower gas bills, etc. But, still unsure if we should keep central air and vents as well just to have some mediocre AC.

    Every HVAC guy comes in talking about moving air and how it is important for health- never have heard that and have lived in baseboard or radiator homes my whole life. Got sick in forced hot air the most…so not really sure moving air (even if it has UV light sanitier) is really all that important. Figure I can just open windows.

    Thanks again,

    Steve

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796

    @stevetars , we do NOT discuss pricing on this forum. See:

    https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual

    You need to edit your post and remove all pricing information.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,294

    @stevetars where in NJ are you located?

    E-Travis Mechanical LLC
    Etravismechanical@gmail.com
    201-887-8856
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,823

    I'd keep the electric baseboard and replace the system with a furnace/AC when it breaks. If a room is uneven, add electric baseboard. No need to tear up the house for marginal, expensive improvements.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 9,572

    If they are cutting it up in to 5 zones make sure they have a strategy to keep it from short cycling.

  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,276

    Thanks @Steamhead. We love the hydronic retrofit that @Dan Foley and his team did on our house in 2015. We live in Maryland in a 1940s-era brick colonial home with a finished attic and basement. It initially had forced air.

    They started with a heat-loss calculation using Right-Suite software and walked through each room and devised a plan to make the house comfortable and more efficient.

    They upgraded the AC system, by installing a new Carrier 16 SEET AV unit, lineset, and variable speed air handler. They modified accessible ductwork and sealed joints, added a large, boxed-in return to the first-floor to improve airflow, and replaced registers and grilles. They installed an LG Art Cool unit on the third floor so the guest room would never again suffer from a stifling DC-area summer. And we could get rid of the massive, looming window unit once and for all.

    To keep our home cozy in the winter, they installed an NTI Trinity modulating-condensing gas boiler that feeds a combination of Burnham Baseray, Radson panel radiators, and a Runtal towel warmer radiator. The panel radiators contain Honeywell TheraPro TRVs. A Honeywell AQ series boiler and zone control with outdoor reset runs the show for five different zones. And I can control all of these zones from my smartphone with a very user-friendly app.

    The system also contains a Legend hydro-separator, Taco 007 and Viridian circulator pumps, Taco Sentry zone valves, and Webstone flanges and valves. Foley Mechanical’s dream team replaced the electric water heater with a 50-gallon NTI stainless steel indirect DHW tank and connected it to the boiler. 

    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    mattmia2GGross
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,695

    You better bring your best game when you go to Erin's house to install a system! 😅

    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    pecmsgmattmia2Erin Holohan HaskellSolid_Fuel_Man
  • stevetars
    stevetars Member Posts: 14

    Thanks @Hot_water_fan for the feedback- definitely a real consideration. Thanks @Erin Holohan Haskell for the very detailed response. Definitely did not read the forum rules, but it looks like post has been edited already- will leave pricing out @Steamhead.

    Currently leaning towards putting in boiler and baseboard multizone, keeping forced hot air system for AC until it dies, then replacing with single stage AC unit.

    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,775

    Consider installing Hot Water coil(s) to suplamate the heating. More control, less invasive.

  • JimP
    JimP Member Posts: 87
    Your number 2 option seems great to me. If the hydronic baseboard is what you want I’d do it. It doesn’t seem like a big price difference to install that new system and add a five head mini split. If the contractor is good it’s seems like a great value to me. ( Plus it’s what you want!). Your latest post suggests that you may not do the mini split…I’d consider it now before equipment prices go up, that (good?) contractor gets busier or increases their labor price, and you can enjoy it now without disruption later when the present AC fails.
    What kind of baseboard emitters are proposed?
    How long do you plan to live in the house?
    Again, do you have great confidence in the installer?
  • stevetars
    stevetars Member Posts: 14
    Thanks Jim, yes we are most likely going to make the move to hydronic baseboard but will probably keep the forced hot air system and ductwork intact as it is for AC- it is integral with the home and quite usable for all the lower levels of the home (gets quite frosty downstairs). We will probably install three zone mini-split system upstairs or a single mini-split in third floor attic bedroom. Five zone mini-split cost was a bit steep and felt unnecessary.
    I have to check on the emitters; plan on living in house for at least 10-15 years, possibly retire here. We do have great confidence in the installer- top notch, responsive, and intelligent engineering.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,775
    Average Mini split life is 7 1/2 - 10 years. Have you added the replacement cost over 15 years?
  • stevetars
    stevetars Member Posts: 14
    @pecmsg- definitely a good point. Another reason, in my opinion, to keep original ductwork for AC.
  • lowercanada
    lowercanada Member Posts: 12

    Thanks @Steamhead. We love the hydronic retrofit that @Dan Foley and his team did on our house in 2015. We live in Maryland in a 1940s-era brick colonial home with a finished attic and basement. It initially had forced air.

    They started with a heat-loss calculation using Right-Suite software and walked through each room and devised a plan to make the house comfortable and more efficient.

    They upgraded the AC system, by installing a new Carrier 16 SEET AV unit, lineset, and variable speed air handler. They modified accessible ductwork and sealed joints, added a large, boxed-in return to the first-floor to improve airflow, and replaced registers and grilles. They installed an LG Art Cool unit on the third floor so the guest room would never again suffer from a stifling DC-area summer. And we could get rid of the massive, looming window unit once and for all.




    hydronic-retrofit-before-after.jpeg


    To keep our home cozy in the winter, they installed an NTI Trinity modulating-condensing gas boiler that feeds a combination of Burnham Baseray, Radson panel radiators, and a Runtal towel warmer radiator. The panel radiators contain Honeywell TheraPro TRVs. A Honeywell AQ series boiler and zone control with outdoor reset runs the show for five different zones. And I can control all of these zones from my smartphone with a very user-friendly app.

    The system also contains a Legend hydro-separator, Taco 007 and Viridian circulator pumps, Taco Sentry zone valves, and Webstone flanges and valves. Foley Mechanical’s dream team replaced the electric water heater with a 50-gallon NTI stainless steel indirect DHW tank and connected it to the boiler. 

    Ka-ching.....but nice upgrade.....(I could do without the while IOT/App part, but I'm old----enough to have dealt with buggy software and fragile hardware.....)
  • lowercanada
    lowercanada Member Posts: 12
    "whole"....
  • stevetars
    stevetars Member Posts: 14
    On the hunt now to determine the best baseboard installation and boiler- one contractor wants to use press fittings with O-rings, but I'm inclined to like soldered joints instead. To me, the O-rings on the press fittings are a potential leak source especially given the cycling of the hot water piping and thermal expansion over time. Is it better to have soldered joints in a hot water baseboard system?

    Second question is a simple one about boilers- we are looking at a few, currently in between Peerless, GWA- 133 Williamson and US Boilers. I'm looking for an American made boiler, standard and sturdy cast-iron, reliable, and not a lot of bells and whistles.
    Any thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Steve

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,021
    Maybe check out some of the high output board, try and get the SWT down as low as possible. That will increase the efficiency of the boiler and open the door for a HP in the future. 120- 125 SWT would be a nice target temperature.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    pecmsg
  • TonKa
    TonKa Member Posts: 103
    edited April 2023
    FWIW, radiators instead of baseboard can also work. Some consider them better for comfort. Most consider them better for aesthetics.