Recommended floor condition for radiant over heart pine plank

Motorapido · March 2021

Jamie Hall said:

A word about finishing the floor, once you sand it. There are, indeed, a variety of nice new floor finishes out there -- polyurethanes of varying sorts. Very attractive. Very advertised. If you can get far enough with your mission to be able to keep that floor, don't use them. Use clear or yellow shellac. Clear will maintain the colour of the floor (well, a little darker);; yellow will make it a little darker and more gold in colour. ;You will need at least two coats (three will be better) and be sure to thin it (denatured alcohol). The fumes (alcohol, no more harmful than a couple of shots of Scotch) are powerful, but go away -- completely -- in a few hours. You can walk on it (light traffic) in 12 hours and recoat in 12 hours, and heavy traffic or rugs are fine after about two to four days, depending on humidity.

I'm curious, Jamie, why do you prefer shellac to polyurethane? Application? Durability? Appearance? In what ways does it beat polyurethane?

Jamie Hall · March 2021

All three. Plus two others: authenticity and reversability. Application is trivially easy, once the floor is cleaned the way you like it (sanded, just alcohol wipe, whatever). No concerns about lap marks. No concerns about stopping in the middle. Just thin it properly, get a good brush, and go. Then wait a couple of hours. Ready for light traffic. Two days, heavy traffic. But I would wait a week before I put a rug with a heavy weight (like the leg on a piano!) on the rug on it. Durability -- the stuff lasts forever unless it gets soaked, and if it does get damaged ten minutes with a rag and denatured alcohol and you'll never see the damage. Appearance -- I happen to like the sheen. Not gloss, but not quite the same satin as satin urethanes -- there's more life to it somehow. Authenticity -- prior to the 1960s, you either had true spar varnish (and try to get that nowadays! Good luck!) which was mostly for outdoor brightwork or shellac or oil -- or nothing in very early buildings. Oil, in my experience, was rarely used for floors, as the oils available take a long time to polymerize. They do produce a nice finish. Shellac was common. And last, shellac is the most reversible without further damage.

ethicalpaul · March 2021

Plus let’s not forget, it’s a secretion from a beetle!!

ChrisJ · March 2021

There is absolutely no way I would ever consider shellac over a 2 part water based polyurethane.

A good sealer followed by 2 coats of Basic Coatings Street Shoe. And you don't use a brush.....

Also I'm no expert but as far as I know you can do spot repairs with water based poly.

By the way, the oil based poly that's on my yellow pine flooring is from 1987. Not sure where 5 years comes from?

TAG · March 2021

Shellac was at one time the only game in town -- the advent of oil poly .. massive marketing of wiping varnish and "danish oil" wiped it out.

All the pine basement walls done in the 50's are shellac.

For floors .. well it comes down to not being as tough and not being as waterproof. I still use shellac .. in my shop and studio.

The modern polly formulas are quite amazing ... did use shellac on my 1810 federal in Philadelphia when I redid the floors yeas ago. We only cleaned them and recoated

Jamie Hall · March 2021

Completely agree with @ChrisJ -- once you have put poly on -- of whatever flavour -- that's what you are putting on. End of story.

ChrisJ · March 2021

Jamie Hall said:
Completely agree with @ChrisJ -- once you have put poly on -- of whatever flavour -- that's what you are putting on. End of story.

You misunderstood.
I would never choose shellac over a 2 part water based poly finish.

Jamie Hall · March 2021

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:
Completely agree with @ChrisJ -- once you have put poly on -- of whatever flavour -- that's what you are putting on. End of story.
You misunderstood.
I would never choose shellac over a 2 part water based poly finish.

I think the choice depends very much on what one is trying to do. The old debate between restoration, resto-mod, and remodelling... to which there is no one good answer.

LS123 · March 2021

I am in agreement with what @Jamie Hall stated... thank u and best!

ChrisJ · March 2021

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:
Completely agree with @ChrisJ -- once you have put poly on -- of whatever flavour -- that's what you are putting on. End of story.
You misunderstood.
I would never choose shellac over a 2 part water based poly finish.

I think the choice depends very much on what one is trying to do. The old debate between restoration, resto-mod, and remodelling... to which there is no one good answer.

I suppose I can agree with that.
The issue is Paul is trying to make a home, not a museum. It's not a restoration.

He wants his yellow pine floors to look decent and hold up well with normal traffic (friends, family etc).

A 2 part water based poly floor finish is the product to use by a long shot. Streetshoe doesn't yellow and will be far easier to work with (it's self leveling, applied with a squeegee).

https://www.basiccoatings.com/products/streetshoe-nxt/b16664312?pageNumber=1

Two coats of Emulsion Pro followed by two coats of Streetshoe and that'll be a beautiful floor for a very long time.

Allow at least 2-3 hours between coats and 1 hour of good ventilation
before closing job site. Keep air moving over floor for several hours.
The floor may be opened to light traffic and furniture replaced
after 24 hours dry time, however, it is susceptible to scuffing or
marring. Finish will reach full cure in approximately 7 days. Do not
place carpet, rugs, or cover the finish for at least two weeks after
completion of coating.

hot_rod · March 2021

humidity control has a lot to do with wood floor movement, shrinking and expanding. The wider the board the more noticable. 10" wide T7G boards can really show a gap when they get too dry.
Solid wood floor problems are more about moisture not typical radiant temperatures.

LS123 · March 2021

hello all,
During winter, depending on where you live, humidity level drop and wood shrinks.
I have been told that it is best to install real wood (floors) during humid seasons so the wood is already expanded and would not push against each other and create bumps on the floor. Or expose the wood to humidity by perhaps in a room with a humidifier.

Best

TAG · March 2021

Have done wide flooring over radiant. Always have the wood delivered early and the moisture is checked prior to install.

My current project is white oak 8/10/12 ..... I have done 8/12 before w/o issue. Some floors need more caution radiant or not. I did a barn conversion with 6" beech -- you have to be spot on dry or you can get gaps with beach ... seems to dry slowly. Cherry is easy.

hot_rod · March 2021

Wood experts say to allow the wood to acclimate to the job site for a week or so. If you do that in winter, or at a low humidity point in time, seems you may end up with some swelling and lifting at the seams as the floor takes on moisture?
In a perfect world the humidity would be closely controlled across the year. I suppose.

One of the oak flooring association troubleshooters told me of a job in Maine where wood was brought in from very arid Utah. The flooring swelled when the humidity hit it and actually pushed the bottom wall plate off the floor a bit from the expansion.

ethicalpaul · April 2021

An update: I decided to (for now at least) keep the original pine planks, so I don't need to worry about new wood acclimating or anything.

I used Uponor 1/2" pex and their $8/48" plates and it was easy even for my first experience with them. The floor is warm and toasty, and I don't care much about the actual btus because it's just for comfort, not for primary heating (I have the steam radiators for that).

I am sending about 125F up to this floor and my tiny bathroom floor on two loops fed from a hot water loop directly off my boiler (no heat exchanger) and getting about 115 back. Each one is .4 gpm. Note you can see the 8-way color in the pex. I'm just running the circulator 24/7 but I may put a timer/thermostat on it for next year. I have an aquastat but it's also not wired up because it takes a few hours for the floor to pull all the standby heat out of the boiler so in the winter it will be fine. There has been no expansion noise at all.

I did apply some alcohol to the current floor finish to see what it would do, and it didn't do anything...the alcohol didn't touch it, so it's not shellac I guess? Is it varnish? I am ignorant of the floor finishes of the past.

This is the pex as I was threading it through to all the bays:

Jamie Hall · April 2021

Nice looking work, there. And if the alcohol didn't touch the floor finish, as you say it's not shellac. It would be varnish, and possibly genuine spar. But in any case, best way to go is to sand it a little for smoothness and some bite, and poly.

Recommended floor condition for radiant over heart pine plank

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