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CSST pipe leak in new home

Ultra2424
Ultra2424 Member Posts: 3
edited February 12 in THE MAIN WALL
Moved into a new home a few weeks ago. We smelled a gas leak and found a leak in one of our CSST pipes (a nail went through it). Was 'fixed' but I'm pretty sure we still have a leak.

1. Was the whole pipe supposed to be replaced or can the puncture be sealed?
2. Where should I go from here to get it fixed correctly?
edit: black 1/2" pipe with puncture, inside an interior home wall.

thanks, Greg

Comments

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,790
    It depends where the leak occurred. I don't believe repairs are allowed in inaccessible areas.
    This is your contractors responsibility. I would demand that they isolate your appliances and pressure test the whole system.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    Ultra2424mattmia2bucksnort
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,684
    edited February 11
    How old is the house and what color is the tubing?
    Ultra2424
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,331
    The whole pipe does not necessarily need replacing. I would call the person back who did the first repair and tell them you still have a leak.
    The best thing to do is what @Zman suggests above.
    This leak could be anywhere. Isolating each appliance and testing the line, then testing each branch line should get the leak found.
    Ultra2424superchimpkcopp
  • Ultra2424
    Ultra2424 Member Posts: 3
    Brand new house. Black 1/2" tubing. Leak is in wall above a closet. Thanks for the help!
  • Ultra2424
    Ultra2424 Member Posts: 3
    Leak was found, my main question is how do they (or were supposed to) fix the leak. Do they have to replace the pipe or could they seal the puncture? Does that make sense? Thanks!
  • superchimp
    superchimp Member Posts: 4
    You don't need to replace all the CSST tubing, but it might turn out to be cheaper and easier to rerun sections if you suspect there is a leak somewhere else behind a wall and don't know where.

    I'd also recommend isolating appliances as others have suggested. Good luck!

    Note - if this is a brand new house, odds are everything is still under the MC or GC warranty period.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,684
    IIRC, all penetrations thru studs and plates are to have steel guard plates to prevent nail holes.
    I avoid using it if at all possible....old guy who likes black pipe.
    Ultra2424mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,677
    They would have had to replace the section in the wall and put a coupler in the basement or somewhere else that is accessible. It can be repaired, but the section that is inside the wall/ceiling/other inaccessible area has to be continuous, it can't have any fittings.
    Ultra2424
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,690
    The pipe in a concealed area cannot be repaired. The concealed section must be cut and pulled out you can't patch it.

    You can put a new section or run a complete new pipe (which is the better opotion). If just the section in the wall is installed wherever it connects those connections must be accesable.

    As @JUGHNE mentioned it is supposed to be protected by nail plates if installed in new construction. If fished in a wall that is not practable.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,684
    Hopefully, the nail was removed....all of it for the full length to the point.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,461
    I'm a little confused: twice the OP has stated the pipe was black. Is it black iron pipe or CSST with a black jacket?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    rick in Alaska
  • I think it's CSST Counterstrike.


    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,764
    This is why we don't install CSST.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    JUGHNEmattmia2
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,461
    A lot of folks feel the same way, Frank. But if a nail penetrated the pipe, it wasn't properly protected. Granted, it's pretty hard to drive a nail through black iron pipe.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    mattmia2
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,690
    I don't like the stuff, it's basically electrical sealtight.

    I only used it a few times

    1 was a 2" temporary gas line for some roof top unit's

    The second time was to fish it up through a wall to feed a furnace in an attic

    The third time was to run from 1 end of the house to the other through a finished basement with 2' x 2' ceiling tiles. The ceiling grid was 1 1/2" below the joists. Would have had to take the ceiling grid completely down to get 10'footers of black pipe in there

    So there is a place for it but I don't like it
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,677
    Steamhead said:

    This is why we don't install CSST.

    Well the minor lighting damage that turns in to a gas fueled fire is the main reason.
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 435
    mattmia2:
    Can you clarify please? Do you mean "lightning damage"?
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,216
    CSST had issues early on. It developed pin holes if hit by lightning. The solution was Bonding the pipe connections. Here that added cost made it not worth it.

    https://www.gastite.com/downloads/pdfs/TB2010-01.pdf
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 290
    edited February 12
            We rarely use csst. When it's  routed through exterior walls it is held captive by spray foam insulation; a nail for hanging a picture / painting frame can penetrate the captive csst mid stud bay. 
        We use black iron pipe in all concealed installs.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,660
    Not a fan of any csst . I have also seen the early on lighting strike pin hole scenario that was the end of its use for me plus even w the new counter strike by the time you buy there ul listed nail plates and accessary it’s cheaper to do in black pipe . I see loads of it installed w zero skill required without any of the required manufactures nail plates and holes guards or proper termination or transition pieces that’s enough for me not to like . I see it as being geared towards un skilled employees and new construction and one day wonder jobs and those who don’t really care and are profit driven for sure , I ll be-sticking to threading till I see the under side of the grass or till I just can’t spin or hold a pipe wrench but that’s me . Strangest thing no body ever wants to be responsible for bonding electricians usually say no and the plumber says it ain’t my job so it usually doesn’t get done like driving a grounding rod and running some #8 solid core wire and a pipe ground is way to hard is it the end of the world ? I think I if had to I would replace the whole run instead of 2 couplings and then pressure test but that's me a weirdo ,plus where were the nail plates if missing then was it inspected we usually fail when there’s missing nail plates even w steel piping .peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 2,246
    Hi, I know I'm miles off-topic here, but I think we need a book from @clammy . It could be titled clammyisms, or The Phisosophy of clammy, or ???. There is a lot of wisdom in those words you write!

    Yours, Larry
    mattmia2ZmanIntplm.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,677
    @Larry Weingarten but i'm not sure you could pay the team of editors enough. He's a master once you figure out what he's saying.
    Intplm.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 3,677
    pecmsg said:

    CSST had issues early on. It developed pin holes if hit by lightning. The solution was Bonding the pipe connections. Here that added cost made it not worth it.

    https://www.gastite.com/downloads/pdfs/TB2010-01.pdf

    That requires someone both understand the bonding requirements and does it and inspects it and doesn't disconnect it while doing other work. It is still much thinner and more fragile even if it is bonded.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,690
    @mattmia2 said " It is still much thinner and more fragile even if it is bonded."



    That's the truth. The stuff is about as substantial as tin foil. Back a few years ago with the lighting strikes and the bonding issues the Mass. State Plumbing Board cancelled it's use for a while.

    I was hoping that would be the end of it

    But after they made the manufacturers prove to their satisfaction that it was ok they let it back in.

    Wish they didn't

    Gas can be dangerous
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,790
    mattmia2 said:

    @Larry Weingarten but i'm not sure you could pay the team of editors enough. He's a master once you figure out what he's saying.

    It is just a different dialect. Once you listen to it for a while it is as clear as can be. :)
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 362
    edited February 13
    I agree, the CSST is too easily damage and many times it is sloppily run.  Recently used black pipe throughout addition (boiler, oven, dryer, grill) to our historic house using standard pipe fitting for majority of connections and Viega MegaPress in a few key places that would have been a lot of trouble since I don’t have a pipe threader. 

    Black pipe takes longer to install but is practically bullet proof when done. 


    bucksnortpecmsg
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,216
    Press fittings are so much quicker and just as good 
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,461
    edited February 14
    @PC7060
    A couple or so pointers on your gas line:
    1. You cannot conceal that gas cock if you're planning on finishing that ceiling.
    2. A drip leg is useless if the flow of gas doesn't change direction through the Tee.
    3. You cannot use a plug on gas.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,346
    Ironman said:

    @PC7060
    A couple or so pointers on your gas line:
    1. You cannot conceal that gas cock if you're planning on finishing that ceiling.
    2. A drip leg is useless if the flow of gas doesn't change direction through the Tee.
    3. You cannot use a plug on gas.

    why no plug ?
    besides code
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,461
    Just code. Same reason for no bushings or street Ells
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 9,690
    Around here bushings are a no no but plugs and streets are fine although I do't use streets unless there is no alternative . Just don't like them.

    But then, MA doesn't allow galvanized but I think most other states do
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 362
    @Youngplumber ”Recently used black pipe throughout addition (boiler, oven, dryer, grill) to our historic house”
    FYI: Boiler is in original section which does look appropriately scrungy!


    Youngplumber
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 362
    edited February 14
    Ironman said:
    @PC7060 A couple or so pointers on your gas line: 1. You cannot conceal that gas cock if you're planning on finishing that ceiling. 2. A drip leg is useless if the flow of gas doesn't change direction through the Tee. 3. You cannot use a plug on gas.
    @Ironman thanks for feedback..

    1. concur - this area will remain open to allow full access and was framed with dimensional lumber for that reason. Used engineered joists on second level which is all fully enclose by drywall. The 19.2 joist spacing and large allowable hole size are great for running the 3” waste lines.   However, the code requires drywall or other approved fire rated covering is pain for shop area. 

    2. I can see that it would be much more effective in a turbulent stream.  Thanks for tip. 

    3. What code section proscribes plugs or  street 90? Passed gas line inspection with no issues.  
    FYI: I placed the tee at the turn so could add dirt leg if inspectors requested. Not required for oven by code  but some inspectors like to see anyway. 
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 362
    @Youngplumber - hmmmm,  I think I’ll have to decline!  :D

    Don’t use the megapress jaws often but the tool with copper ProPress is kept pretty busy!  Just had a water heater go out at another property, 2hrs to replace with the ProPress. Course, I’m sure you pro are much faster than I with torch but it’s nice to be able to work with wet pipes. 

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 362
    @Ironman - thanks for heads up on the dirt leg orientation. Very clearly described in SECTION 408 (IFGC) DRIPS AND SLOPED PIPING.  

    That line services a gas grill which doesn’t require a trap.  Probably why inspector let it go.  
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 2,904
    edited February 14
    That line services a gas grill which doesn’t require a trap. Probably why inspector let it go.
    Often, a drip leg is required by the appliance manufacturer; voids the warranty if not.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
    PC7060Ultra2424
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,331
    And I should mention, as a very important side note. Common nail plates should not be used when protecting CSST. What is needed is what I believe is called "Striker Plates".

    Striker plates are commonly a different color (black) than the common nail plate and extremely heavy. They are made to not allow a nail or screw to penetrate under the most strenuous fastener attempts. The manufacturer's guidelines should be followed without fail with this pipe which includes the proper striker plate use and grounding/bonding installation.
    @Ultra2424 I hope striker plates and not nail plates have been used on this installation.
    Ultra2424