Riser, header, cant get any good answers

Thecrow · November 2019

Posted the setup of my boiler and had a lot of good information about adding steam or hot water loop. Ive decided on the steam route but not sure how to add another main? I know the piping isnt the best but like I said, the last crown boiler was 30 years old piped the exact same way no issues. I need to add, and I have another tap on top of the boiler, a main that goes up to my attic from there I will pipe in a t and add two radiators to heat this attic. Question is, can I just add the main directly to the tap? Do I have to get a plumber to re-pipe the boiler to add a riser, header etc? I want it to work not cost a fortune. While some disagree how its set up now, it heats the house with no issues. Any advice or detailed theory would be great thank you

Thecrow · November 2019

Here are some photos of the book that came with the National boiler if this helps

Jamie Hall · November 2019

Well... hadn't seen the boiler piping before. It is a good example to use to show how forgiving steam heat really is...

That said. What you need to add is a riser for the radiators (not a new riser from the boiler, nor a new main, and not that big a one at that). If you have a copy of The Lost Art there is a chart which gives you the riser size required to carry various loads -- so what you need to do is to figure the EDR of the two radiators you are adding and size the riser based on that (if you don't have a copy of The Lost Art, get one. It's cheap).

Then the riser can tie in pretty much anywhere on your existing main that's handy. You probably don't have any handy unions on it -- most don't -- so there will be some cutting to take it apart (unless you are really really lucky!) and fit a new T for the new riser and reassemble it.

Or you could take the opportunity to repipe the whole boiler in accordance with the second diagram (steam piping)… but if it ain't broke, I probably would try the first option first (you'd need to do that anyway), without changing the boiler piping, and only do that if you found you needed to later -- or well down the line, when you put in a new boiler.

Thecrow · November 2019

So... your telling that I need to cut my main downstairs (sawzall carbide tipped blade) and add a T and a union or two and then find out the size pipe? Its probably best to go with whats already there Im guessing think its a 2inch main if that sounds right i certainly can take pictures of the pipes as they are all exposed... Run that pipe upstairs to the attic? I have a friend who has the lost art i already sent him a mesage

Jamie Hall · November 2019

Thecrow said:
So... your telling that I need to cut my main downstairs (sawzall carbide tipped blade) and add a T and a union or two and then find out the size pipe? Its probably best to go with whats already there Im guessing think its a 2inch main if that sounds right i certainly can take pictures of the pipes as they are all exposed... Run that pipe upstairs to the attic? I have a friend who has the lost art i already sent him a mesage

Basically... although I'd be very much inclined to run the piping upstairs and all before I cut the main downstairs and added the T... unless you have a nice spell of warm weather coming up...

Thecrow · November 2019

yeah mine wasnt necessarily in order. Its about 23 degrees this morning. Im going to pick a spot on the main that is closest to where Im going to run the pipe upstairs but Ill do everything else first. This way like you said all Ill have to do is do my connections in my garage during one of these days its at least in the 50's. Yeah, I wish the plumber piped this with using the two taps etc maybe it would be easier. However, even running a new riser with two new radiators probably wont bother this boiler. It was carefully selected by the plumber and supply house. I specifically told them that I was going to add 2 or 3 radiators and they calculated this in for me in advance

Thecrow · November 2019

How do I properly insulate the riser pipe and connections because its going to come up behind my knee wall in the attic and that is cold as heck? I can wrap it because its accessible but gotta make sure the pipe wont freeze or lose to much heat? Thanks

Ironman · November 2019

What piping method are you proposing on using? One pipe or two? Parallel or counterflow?
Like Jamie said, it will need to be connected to the existing main, not directly to the boiler.

Regarding the near boiler piping: there are some things that you may not understand.
1. You can't compare how the old boiler was piped to the new. Old boilers had a much larger steam chest than new ones do. The near boiler piping on new ones is critical and the manufacturer's instructions are the MINIMUM that must be done.
2. You said "I know the piping is not the best". That's huge understatement. It's not even close to being the minimum required by the manufacturer. If it was the minimum required, then we could say that it's not the best. A drop header that used both boiler taps would be the best.

None of us wants to spend more money on things than necessary, but physics doesn't care about that at all. The laws of physics will out-weigh the laws of economics every time.

Even if the current setup is functioning without issues, is not functioning efficiently as that setup is bound to be producing wet steam. Adding another riser and more rad's could easily cause more issues to appear.

Also, if you have an issue with the boiler block, the manufacturer could deny warranty coverage because it's not piped according to the minimum standards in the manual. You'll be better off in the long run by correcting things now.

IDK who installed that, but if it was a licensed contractor, he's required to follow the manual. If that's the case, he should be made to correct it.

This is the piping diagram from the I/O manual.

STEAM DOCTOR · November 2019

@Thecrow. Are you sure that boiler can handle extra radiators?? I certainly would not trust the opinion of the boiler installer.

Hap_Hazzard · November 2019

The safest way to add more radiators to an existing system is to add a takeoff where the main vent is currenly located. Do you know where it is, and is it anywhere near where you'd be able to run a pipe to the attic?

You'll want to use 1" pipe and insulate it throughly with fiberglass pipe wraps.

Thecrow · November 2019

The crown boiler was the same exact size and makeup as this model. After all, its the sister company. As for the way Im running the new riser have no idea yet until I get EDR and measurements to see what the best route is up to the attic there are many walls I can go behind upstairs. The plumber who did this is subpar and in this case, he copied the install of the previous boiler. I KNOW that its not the correct install. At this point, if I get a plumber who knows about steam I can have him do this correctly but I know it will cost about 1500 to re-pipe not to mention the fittings etc. I see no evidence of wet steam and this setup no matter how messed up it is, works bottom line. I have seen many boilers use only one tap. I know two is the standard. we have rental units and 3 of them have one tap and have been working far as I can remember. I know that the boiler 138 BTU can handle another 3 or even 4 radiators. I have had other plumbers and a master plumber tell me that this boiler will def handle that amount of radiators after doing the proper calculations EDR and size of the rads etc. The question is do i see what its going to cost to install the drop header and add the additional riser to supply the main going to attic or maybe just use a hot water loop like some have suggested

Thecrow · November 2019

@Hap_Hazzard yes Im going to take some photos in a bit but everything is easily accessible and exposed to work on any of the pipes

SeanBeans · November 2019

You might even be able to order a near boiler piping kit from crown and do it yourself. If I’m not mistaken, the near boiler piping kit comes with instructions.

Thecrow · November 2019

Here is my entire setup essentially. Rads I have 5, these are the pipes under our first floors from the boiler.

Thecrow · November 2019

@SeanBeans I'm going to look into this tomorrow, providing everything is straightforward, I should be able to do this

SeanBeans · November 2019

Godspeed

SeanBeans · November 2019

And if you say this is heatingyoure house fine. Might not be a bad idea to wait until a warm spell or after the winter in case something comes up where you need to call a professional in for an emergency.

Things happen.

Thecrow · November 2019

Yeah I'm going to have a plumber who has done excellent work with other steam boiler installs take a look at it before I dig in. I do need heat very soon so if he's reasonable maybe he will be able to get it done depending

Thecrow · November 2019

I'm still wondering about just a heat loop to run upstairs it's only two radiators. It might be easier this way because of the way this boiler was installed

Hap_Hazzard · November 2019

SeanBeans said:
And if you say this is heatingyoure house fine. Might not be a bad idea to wait until a warm spell or after the winter in case something comes up where you need to call a professional in for an emergency.

Things happen.

^ Understatement of the year.
If you're seeing subfreezing temperatures already, I'd put the whole thing off until spring. If you absolutely need to use this space, I'd say make do with propane or electric space heaters and electric blankets. If you have a dog or two, bring them up there with you. 🐕

Thecrow · November 2019

If I go with the steam route yeah probably wait until spring. Or, hire my plumber he installed a new crown last year in our rental with no heat and in the teens. Brought his own heaters was done in three days wish I had pictures of the beautiful work he did. Cost me an extra 300 to have it built that way but working beautifully. Some guys say I went overkill but I disagree. I. Still looking into the hot water loop. Have 3 dogs and a fussy cat they don't like cold however. Maybe in the mean time I can hook up a line to run one of those vented wall propane heaters

Jamie Hall · November 2019

Thecrow said:
I'm still wondering about just a heat loop to run upstairs it's only two radiators. It might be easier this way because of the way this boiler was installed

The way the boiler was installed and running steam upstairs are two completely different issues. Don't confuse them! The one -- running heat upstairs -- involved adding one T to the main somewhere handy -- that's it. Well, and the pipe upstairs. The near boiler piping is another story altogether.

On the insulation. Good idea. Insulate everything that carries steam that you can get at -- you'd be amazed at the difference. You don't have to worry about a steam pipe freezing -- it won't, unless the conditions are Siberian. There's very little water in it, and that only when there's also steam.

Thecrow · November 2019

Do you think because of the way it was piped its going to mess up another riser with two radiators? I think not, but I'm not a plumber either. I added radiators before off the mains in different properties we have, never had a problem. The boiler works even though the installation was messed up. In fact my gas consumption is lower than when I had the crown in last year

Thecrow · November 2019

Is there a specific spot on the main where the T and 1 inch riser should go? I can probably get it installed anywhere since all the piping is exposed. Unfortunately, I don't see a T so I'll have to cut into the main when we get a warmer stretch thanks

Hap_Hazzard · November 2019

If the main vent is easy to get to, that's where I'd put it. You can usually put a tee somewhere between the end of the main and the vent. You usually have some bushings and/or adapters to go from 2" to ¾", so you can usually fit a 1" tee in there someplace.

ch4man · November 2019

why is there a car parked in your basement?
boiler and water heater need to be elevated 18" by code for a garage installation.

glad things are working well for you. be safe

Thecrow · November 2019

@Hap_Hazzard I located a usable t I'll attach a picture lmk what you think. As for the "car in my basement" I pull it in to change my oil because I have heat there been like that since 1958, was built that way never a problem even with overzealous inspectors thanks for your input though @ch4man

Hap_Hazzard · November 2019

Thecrow said:
I located a usable t I'll attach a picture lmk what you think.

Looks promising. What size is it?

clammy · November 2019

Even though it works it’s not piped close to looking like anybody who knew anything or cared at all did it .if I was asked to add another radiator to a steam boiler piped like that I would expressly state that I would not be responsible for if and how it worked . In truth it’s your house you live with and when you move or sell just hope a really stupid home inspector looks at it cause a savvy homeowner would be deducting mucho coin for your home schooled efforts . Bad near boiler piping produces wet steam wet steam less heat more wet steam in mains more grooving and leaks at pipe joints . It’s all up to you but when issue arise don’t except a real steamguy to look at that and say it’s great it’s not .To me there seems to be a major bout of dyslexia going around being people can’t seem to follow something s easy as a drawing .being cheap must be the mother of invention.keep hobbling junk together remenber any body can spin a wrench it’s the same as every body wipes there bottom except some smell all day long wonder if there doing it right Peace and good luck clammy there all telling you the truth but you refuse so carry on with creating garbage and unsolvable but live w issues

psb75 · November 2019

It seems to me that you are getting some good answers. What will you do with them? Keep us informed. Very interesting to watch.

Thecrow · November 2019

@Hap_Hazzard it's a one inch. Buying the crown near pipe kit after that's installed I'll run 1 inch up to the attic to a T with the two radiators

Hap_Hazzard · November 2019

Sounds great. The answer was there all along, huh?

Thecrow · November 2019

@Hap_Hazzard not sure if i can tackle the pipe kit or not yet. If its too difficult Ill have the plumber do it. The T will be something I can easily do providing its not fused on there. Ive had good luch with a torch and some blaster in the past.

Riser, header, cant get any good answers

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