Looking for opinions on replacing heat & hot water units

MAJoyce · May 2019

I live in Massachusetts and own a very old home that has been divided into 2 apartments. The internally located chimney where the gas heating units are vented is compromised beyond repair. The 1st floor apartment has forced hot air and the 2nd floor has a hot water boiler/baseboards.

Given the cost of rebuilding the chimney, I'm planning on upgrading the units (heating & hot water) to direct vent/high efficiency models and taking advantage of all the Mass Save benefits. An added bonus is that without the chimney taking up space I can do some internal remodeling in one of the apartments.

I received a quote from one plumber for a high efficiency Bryant 915SA42 furnace (heat only) and Lochinvar KHN-155 boiler (heat only) and another plumber gave me a quote on a Lenox Elite EL196UH070XE36B furnace & ac option for the 1st floor with an electric (which is a mistake on their part it should be gas) Mitsubishi MXZ3C30NA2-U1 heat pump & ac option for the 2nd floor apartment along with an AO Smith Tankless Condensing 1657ATI240HNG water heater.

I have no special knowledge about plumbing & heating and have some questions that I'm hoping people would be willing to comment on in order to help me make my final decision.

1. How do I tell if the prices I'm being quoted for any of this work are reasonable? Is there a website I can check to get an idea of what these things should costs? I understand that the plumber needs to make money but want to make sure I'm not getting charged a ridiculously inflated rate.
2. Since I live in MA will a heat pump/ac option work on the really cold days? I'm hoping the answer to this is yes because it will allow me to get rid of the baseboards which I don't like.
3. Since each plumber is giving me quotes on different brands (I get that brand preference will vary between plumbers) how do I compare each model to tell which is the better option for me?
4. I've heard and read plenty of good reviews about Rinnai tankless water heaters but am unable to find any on the AO Smith option. How do I find out which is the better option?

I appreciate any and all input on these questions. Thank you!

Jamie Hall · May 2019

First things first... the Mitsubishi unit you mention is electric. So are all heat pumps that I know of for residential use... I've never seen a gas fired residential heat pump.

It's a good unit. So are all the other units you've mentioned. They are also all different...

The only way to get an accurate quote or quote on a heating or heating and air conditioning job is to first define exactly what you want to do, which I'm not at all sure you've done. Then contact two or three qualified heating or heating and ventilating technicians to come and evaluate the structure (some plumbers can do this. Remarkably few...). If they are qualified, they will determine the heat (and cooling, if needed) loads of the structure and determine which equipment will do the job (which also, evidently, has not been done -- the various units you mention have quite different capacities) and what the cost of installation and commissioning will be.

EBEBRATT-Ed · May 2019

@MAJoyce
Also check "find a contractor" on this site. Make sure the contractor does an accurate heat loss and heat gain. You may want to put money into windows and insulation first before sizing the equipment.

HVACNUT · May 2019

Totally agree with the above. The general response to you wanting to get rid of hot water heat will be "Are you nucking futz?" Hydronic heat is a much more comfy cozy heat without the temp swings and nose bleeds.
It might not meet your budget but if you absolutely want to be rid of the baseboard, and would like to add A/C to both apartments, you can look into a small mod con, an indirect water heater, and an A/C system with hydro air heat (a hot water coil in the ductwork) for both apartments.
Heat pumps can be applicable in your zone but they will most likely need secondary electric heat strips in the Air handlers for real cold days and defrost cycles.
You can go from mild to wild so get some reputable HVAC contractors to come in, not plumbers (maybe you're just generalizing the term) tell them your needs so you have a somewhat apples to apples comparison. And yes, click the find a contractor link at the top of the page. I think theres a few guys by you.
@GW ?

GW · May 2019

Joyce I hope it all works out. You're not alone, no one enjoys spending 1000's on stuff we are not well versed with. You probably need to keep getting quotes until you feel like you can start connecting dots in your mind. Every option you mentioned has specific pros and cons. Then- if the installer does a great job or lame job, that's a whole different topic

In general, try and find someone with the best reputation. If you get a 'hit it and don't call me I'll call you' contractor, you will be very upset if there's a glitch down the road. That's why contractors with better reputations cost more (generally speaking), becasue they will stop what they are doing (making a living) and go help you when something bad happens.

Quick side story-I needed a couple of bigger Maple's cut down at my house last year. I didn't have time or energy to get lots of quotes so I just went with a bigger local co with a good reputation (knowing I could save a buck if I shopped around). Well they did a lame job, roots still popping up here and there, and no grass grew, at all.

The moral of the story- most of the people you encounter are good-hearted contractors, but even the good ones have a bad day. If you feel like you're going to fall apart if the process doesn't work out excellently, then (hate to say) home ownership isn't for everyone.

Best of luck, I'm in 01060 if that helps. We don't travel very far though (20-30 min)

Zman · May 2019

This needs to start with a proper heat loss calculation performed by a qualified individual.
Your first "plumber" can't seem to decide between a 97k unit or a 155k unit.
The Lennox is a 66k.
The Mitsubishi is 30k (and yes it is only available in electric) and will likely only produce 24k at lower outdoor temps.

My advice would be to hire a reputable contractor and relax. A good question to ask them right away is "how do you determine the correct sizing?". If the answer has anything to do with "rules of thumb", "that's what size you have", "done it this way for xx years", or, I love this one, "since you are North of the Mass pike we use XX per square foot", you need to keep looking.

As for on line reviews, they are fine if you are looking for a new toaster or digital camera. For HVAC, I ignore all of them, any dealer or manufacture can task an intern or teenager to trash the competition online. Even if the review is real, the customer has no idea why the system is not working, it is usually caused by a bad install by an unqualified contractor. The customer, not realizing this, goes to the internet to try to bash the manufacture.

nicholas bonham-carter · May 2019

People rarely bother to post a complimentary review online, but as Zman notes, can mistake a badly installed boiler for a badly designed and manufactured one.—NBC

Steamhead · May 2019

HVACNUT said:
Totally agree with the above. The general response to you wanting to get rid of hot water heat will be "Are you nucking futz?" Hydronic heat is a much more comfy cozy heat without the temp swings and nose bleeds.

This.

You don't say whether the baseboards are in a tenant space or not. If so, the space will be easier to rent since the tenants will be more comfortable and won't have to pay the exorbitant electric bills from a heat-pump backup system. They'll be more likely to stay if the space is comfortable and affordable.

If not, you yourself will be more comfortable and won't have to pay the exorbitant electric bills from a heat-pump backup system. If you're not crazy about baseboards, you could switch to another type of heat emitter later on. There's quite a variety.

You must realize that any direct-vent unit will have more moving parts than a chimney-vented unit. These are needed to safely exhaust combustion products and monitor the process, and will increase the likelihood of breakdowns later on. Also, the building must have a safe location for exhaust terminations, taking into account proximity to windows, doors or other penetrations, proximity to neighboring buildings or walkways, maximum recorded snow accumulation in your area etc. It's not just a simple matter of sticking a pipe through a wall.

This is why I like chimneys. No moving parts, Mother Nature does the work, and they last hundreds of years if properly maintained.

Looking for opinions on replacing heat & hot water units

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