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1" or 11/4" near boiler piping and manifold?

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13

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  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Uh, me again - I don't think I can wire to the Taco zone control panel which I understand is a 24V setup.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Any 12VDC power supply will work...
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QZ58DSU?psc=1
    or..
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XJ8T0I8?psc=1
    or..
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XJ8T0I8?psc=1
    or... :)
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Oh yeah... don't use the 24V output from the Taco panel.. it's AC not DC, and 24V is not recommended as it's boarderline too high for those devices. 12V seems to be perfect supply voltage.

    I used the 12VDC power supply from a dead Xmas inflatable lawn ornament to power my temp sensors and heat/cool relay.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Thank you! I did see the ones you listed when looking around earlier. I will first scrounge around to see if I have any orphaned 12VDC blocks. Can't think of any. When mounting one to the pipe I will do my best to insulate the board away from the heat source.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    I used regular back electrical tape (3-4 wraps around the pipe) to attach the tiny thermistor to my 1" copper pipes for the DHW indirect, then used standard Polyethylene Pipe Insulation from Home Depot to insulate the pipe from the sensor board.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    re - used standard Polyethylene Pipe Insulation

    Thanks - That's about what I though I would do.
    The black electrical tape I used for the infrared thermometer left the gooey adhesive on the pipe when I peeled it off.
    There must be electrical tape that may peel off clean and rated for higher temp.
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 427
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    I've seen lots of factor thermistors just installed with a zip tie and then a wrap of pipe insulation. Anyone see any issue with that?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    It would be nice to do a calibration check on them before installing. With so many of them to make sure they all read the same value at differing temps.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    At least for comparing between multiple sensors I am going to make it easier to plug/unplug the sensors to the 12VDC power source. As for calibration check, I will be happy if they somewhat match the reading of infrared thermometer measured off a matt black painted pipe section. Just a general idea of state of operation without splitting hair, especially for monitoring supply and return temp.
    Need to maybe take a step back on being obsessed over the installer's insistence on 1" header being plenty after they choked it down from 1-1/4". So far so good but this may not be the case when the indirect is added at some point.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Something like this would connect with one of the power source's barrel connector size. Cheaper route would be to just cut off the barrel connector and splice the wires.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    re - factor thermistors just installed with a zip tie and then a wrap of pipe insulation

    I think I like that idea better than using adhesive tape, especially if the board is isolated from the heat source.
    The product into in eBay listing does mention separating from heat so as not to affect date/time function.
    The picture shows the length of the temp lead which should be enough to rise above outside insulation or pipe wrap.
    Not sure if adhesive tape directly on the temp lead will help with more accurate reading vs. strapping down with zip tie.
    Maybe the pipe insulation will help with that.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Looks like closed circuit TV setups use these 2.1x5.5mm connectors.


    5.97 for four female plugs. 6.55 for set of ten male/female plugs.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    What I ended up doing with my sensors was tape the tiny little (grain of rice size) thermistor to the pipe nice and tight w/electrical tape, a few full wraps to help form a heat pocket for the thermistor. Then when installing the (pre-split down the middle) PP pipe insulation- run the thermistor lead through the insulation split and just let the sensor board "float" above the insulation. This arrangement gives good thermistor response and keeps the sensor board away from the (180f) pipes.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Ordered a 10 pack of the female plugs and five of these 12VDC blocks.

  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ That's a great price!
    A single 1000ma (one above adapter) could probably power 20+ sensors... so you'll have some spares!


  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    What are the sample rates of those thermometers?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ They are continuous/instant as far as I can tell.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Ok, NY_Rob. Look what you're getting me into. Love the tinkering and now I need to figure out if there is a single female to two male splitter adapter so I can maybe hook up two sensors, one each on the supply and return header and use one power block for them. Luckily there is an old two prong outlet on the wall next to the new boiler.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Over thinking this. Guess the female plugs could accept multiple wires into the wire connectors. Should easily handle two sensors.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited February 2017
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    ^ I checked one of the temp modules on my VOM... it only draws 25ma, so in theory you could run 40 of them off one of your 1000ma adapters :)
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    NY_Rob - Thank you.
    They should be arriving sometime today and very much looking forward to it.
    Already planning on gifting some to a friend with multiple boiler systems.

    I do have a question about the button cell.
    It looks like it is tack welded to the contact and not easily replaced. I could not lift up on the top contact.
    With the modules used only as a 'live' display of current temperature will it work with a dead battery?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited February 2017
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    ^ As far as I know... the button battery is for the real-time clock and calendar function and to store the temperature error calibration offset- if you use one- (which I don't).

    Without the battery, the clock and calendar wouldn't be accurate- but we don't use those anyway.

    That battery could be a rechargeable LI cell, so it should last 5yrs or longer, once it's dead.. we'll figure out something :)
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Do these have min. Max. Temp memory?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ nope....
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    I always like to be able to see that minimum/ maximum temp on what ever you are choosing to monitor. Check, and reset at what ever interval.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited February 2017
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    ^ You could use one (or more) Azel DS-60P Digital Temperature Gauge with Universal Sensor Probes...
    Min/Max tracking, includes two thermistor probes- one each for SWT and return water pipes. The probes are cut out with a concave notch so they fit properly on to a pipe rather than sitting on top of a pipe.
    They're $45 each though...

  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    I have some of those Azel digital readouts. They work well, but they are expensive.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    This is what I use. Works great. You just need a cheap laptop to connect it to. I used an old Verizon netbook that had been in a drawer since 2010 or so. You can chart the temps, see high and low max, export that data and so on. A great advantage to this setup is that if you have Wifi, you can set up to remote view the computer and have full access to the computer/data logger program. I bought the four channel. They also have six and eight channels for sale. I believe the manual said the program could support up to 50 sensors. Don't quote me on that number but I believe it was 50.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-4-Channel-Temperature-Chart-Recorder-Data-Logger-Monitoring-sensor-Monitor-/111366087510?hash=item19edefa356:m:mjxxRzjOp7Ht3UH0YLaPrTw
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited February 2017
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    On a low temp system such as radiant. indoor outdoor thermometers are a cheap effective solution. Most have min/max memories, sample rates are good. 10' probe. Batteries last 2-3 seasons. Strap probe to pipe, install batteries, mount read out. Done. 10 bucks a pop.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    The azel is nice kills two birds with one readout. Still pricey though. And of course data loggers are the best, but more pricey yet.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
    edited February 2017
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    Well, here it is. The female plug adapter is very convenient for simply inserting the bare wire and clamping down.
    Somehow managed to set the calendar, display brightness and I can have it display the temperature as the default. If I display the time it alternates between time and temp.
    Very confusing additional settings which is not mentioned in the eBay product page instructions.
    I did not enter a + or - adjustment for the temp compensation.
    Need to find other eBay listings for this item to find additional info on various initial settings.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Those are cool! I am sad they only come on Celsius.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
    edited February 2017
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    It will take me a while to get used to using Celcius so this will be taped up next to the boiler...
    I know the formula for converting back and forth between C and F but the chart will be more convenient.
    CtoF.jpg 444.8K
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
    edited February 2017
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    Amazing consistency and as you mentioned they are extremely sensitive.
    Will need to maybe extend the power leads for the sensors.
    Securing the thermistor tip to the pipe and getting the sensor outside some sort of insulation layer will be the next step.
    Would like to avoid using adhesive tape. Maybe zip tie?
    As you can see in the picture the thermistor is only couple inches.
    The display is set to the lowest out of three levels.

    Since I have ten of these I am tempted to get longer thermistors from Amazon and make use of the soldering kit to swap.
    Much longer thermistor lead would be very very nice.
    Hilly
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
    edited February 2017
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    NY_Rob...
    Re-read the seller's' online instructions and I am not 100% about some of the settings options but do have the time/date/temp working.
    After the time is set, I get these choices and pictures are attached.
    0.0u Error voltage calibration function. Am I suppose to get a 12V reading on the sensor? It does give voltage feedback on the display and it reading slightly under 12V.
    AC: 0 Temperature error calibration. Have no idea so I set it to 0.
    dd: 0. This is for status display options. I will try option 3 for time/temp.
    dF: 1 No idea what 'circulation interval dF option' is. Says do not set to 0 or it will be black.
    LL: 1. This one is for display brightness. Oddly overnight one of the two sensors changed to one step brighter to 2.
    AL: 1. Zero mention about this.

  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ this seller's instructions are more or less complete:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/DS3231SN-3-in-1-Digital-Clock-Time-Thermometer-Voltage-Module-LED-Display/291737046654?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=36499&meid=3b9bdc3d4e484c13be931ef42bf8a861&pid=100011&rk=9&rkt=10&sd=361461518584

    No need to mess with the calibration offsets unless one of the devices read considerably higher or lower than actual room temp or supply voltage. I ran three devices on my desk simultaneously and they were all within 0.1C of eachother, so no offset adjustments were needed.

    I did set the time and date on one of the devices, but it's a bit of a pain... and I'll never need it since I just use them to monitor supply and return water temps to/from my DHW indirect tank.

    It's really a fascinating bit of tech... especially for $3 and change.
    It contains:
    - STM8S003F3- 8-bit microcontroller with 8 Kbytes Flash, 16 MHz CPU.
    - DS3231 Real Time Clock chip
    - 4-Digit LED Display (FYI- 2.50 Yen = 2.5 US cents!)
    - 10k Ohm NTC Thermistor
    - Li-Ion Rechargeable Button Cell

    The microcontroller code is written in C (very similar to Arduino coding), once compiled- it's flashed to the mcu via single-wire interface module (SWIM).
    If you were motivated enough to dump the eeprom and decompile the binary back to C- it's just one simple line of C code to change the display from C to F for us in America.

    Very impressive little device!


  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    swvawethead said:


    dF: 1 No idea what 'circulation interval dF option' is. Says do not set to 0 or it will be black.

    That option sets the number of seconds to cycle through the time/date/voltage/temp readings on the LED. If you set it to "0" it will display for 0 seconds.


    swvawethead said:


    AL: 1. Zero mention about this.

    Take a look at the DS3231 datasheet- it mentions two Time-of-Day Alarms in the "Key Features" section. That's probably what you're seeing since it seems to indicate AL:1.... maybe? :)
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
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    Thank you so much for that link. Like you the temp is the main function I will use. Disrupted the power to check and it maintained the current time but I did not leave it unplugged for extended period. If it did reset the only thing I would need to adjust is the display brightness.
    Yes, a very useful gizmo for such a low price and thank you for sharing.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 205
    edited February 2017
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    Well, here they are. the LED display is much more clear and legible than appears in the picture. The thermistor tip is simply held in place with velcro cable ties. I happened to have a bundle of them and may switch to zip ties to cinch it on tighter. The seam of the pipe wrap obviously is along the top so the thermistor wire can rise above.
    This being a trial run used packing tape to tightly close the seam but
    I may not messed with it further.
    The boiler kicked on while I was finishing up the return side (the back one in the pic) and the pipe was cold but warmed up quickly. It's been spring-like for the past week or so.
    I will need to strip away the insulation on the power leads for more secure clamping into the female adapter plug.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    You really should test for accuracy at the temp range of the system. A lot of times accuracy can have more error when higher than room temperature temps are seen.


    The thing about Celsius verses Fahrenheit is this. From 32 to 212 degrees Fahrenheit verses 0 to 100 celsius. It's much easier for a Celsius read out thermometer to give like readings than a Fahrenheit thermometer.

    With Fahrenheit you have 244 whole numbers plus 10 tenths for between whole numbers. With Celsius you have 100 whole numbers with 10 tenths between each whole number.

    So for the same range Fahrenheit gives a more accurate reading.

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