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1" or 11/4" near boiler piping and manifold?

Bill751
Bill751 Member Posts: 119
Near boiler piping and manifold size.

I'm about to install an HTP- UFT 100. Originally I intended to use 1 1/4" copper near boiler piping into a 1 1/4" manifold. I'll then homeroom the 9 CI rads with 1/2 al pex.

The duplex is over 140 years old and there have been many additions and layout changes over that time. There are many unknowns in the walls built in various time periods and exact air leakage is unknown, but poor for sure. My own heat loss with some best guesses came out around 70,000. being so close to the max BTU for 1" pipe made me think 1 1/4" would be a good idea. Since then I've calculated my radiator output. at 180F they can put out 77,500 BTU's.

The numbers told me one of my rads is oversized by around 9000 BTU's when compared to other rads that the calculations say are oversized. I can't recall the heat loss of the room but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 25% of what this rad can deliver. Also, no one uses that room and so the rad has been throttled back at the radiator via the rad valve ever since I've lived here. I cut it way back ( two pipe system) to keep that room around 60 when the rest of the house is 70. Going forward, for now I will probably just continue to use the same method I have been for that rad. Since it is oversized tremendously, I can't imagine ever being able to let it flow close to 100% at the valve. That being the case, I'm guessing I could safely knock off around 9000 BTU's from my total output calculation and go with 68,500 btu's. There is a very small chance I may in the future heat a rec room on the lower level that is currently not heated. if I did, I wouldn't heat it to 70 degrees. That room is also fairly well insulated. so on the off chance I decided to add a rad down there, it would be a fairly small load. I'm guessing max would be a 5000 btu rad. I'll most likely never do it though.

I know the UFT 100 is oversized however I am comfortable with that because of the 10 to 1 turn down. A couple things I considered was that I plan to heat domestic water with the UFT as well, and this will be a future rental property. I've had past tenants in other units that set the heat around 85 and have to turn it up and down. I want some btu insurance and the ability of the system to handle the tenant cranking the heat. I suppose 1" pipe could come into play in that scenario but it's doubtful to be an issue 99% of the winter. if I ran into trouble, new windows should solve it. ( they're on the list anyway)

I can't seem to find the info on 1 1/4" copper max btu's and cannot remember that number. But knowing what 1" is, I am wondering why the HTP install manual for the UFT series states minimum pipe size as 1" for up to the 140,000 btu model?

If there is a good reason to go 1 1/4" then I will. if not then it seems foolish to spend the extra money on the larger manifold, dirtmag, air separator, valves and so on. All in all it's a fair amount, manifold being the biggest difference. well over double for the 1 1/4" manifold and fittings verses the 1" that comes with fittings. If there is no need for 1 1/4" then that money could be put towards windows. when I eventually get to those, then the 1" should surely carry the load, but until then is 1" acceptable?
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Comments

  • Trust your numbers. One inch will be fine.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
    Bob Bona_4
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Yep, like Alan said.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Home run allows you to zone it and not have to play with valves, if you choose.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited January 2017
    If it's a concern, on the HTP you can limit the spaceheating firing capacity from 50% up to 100% of max so in essence your 100K BTU boiler can become a 75K BTU (or any value between 50K and 100K BTU's) boiler if you don't want to throw all 100K BTU's at the spaceheating water. That is independent of the DHW firing capacity- which is adjustable too BTW.

    You can also enable step-modulation which ramps up the firing rate in six one min steps to programmed firing capacity to help keep burns longer and prevent short cycling.

    With those two programmable settings- you have a lot of flexibility. Add the ODR curve programming and you can really dial in the HTP mod-cons.

    Bob Bona_4
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    Thanks Alan and Bob, This stuff is fairly new to me and I wanted to see what others thought about being so close to the max btu 1" can deliver. I will trust the numbers and go with the 1"... Thankfully I have the max rad output numbers to confirm the heat loss calc can't be way higher than I think it is. Since the rads keep up I guess I'm good.

    Paul48, true but I'm not a big fan of small zones and for my application they would be very small. I haven't yet put any real thought into changing from the method I have been using. I suspect things will remain pretty close to the same once I home run. may have to adjust the valve a time or two. I originally adjusted the rad valve maybe two times or so and that was it. since then that room has followed along nicely right where I want it, about 10 degrees behind the rest. The old adage may apply here, if it ain't broke........

    NY_Rob, I'm pretty excited to get the UFT and dial it in. Around the end of December we put a Williamson Thermoflow Freestyle in the downstairs apartment. Since then I added an Ecobee lite thermostat to gather runtime data, and to have the abillity to know from anywhere the heating system is functioning or even turned on (past tenant issue= broken rad).. I also just added external temp thermocouplers to both the supplies and returns for the primary and secondary. I found a cheap 4 channel USB data logger on ebay which I connected to an old netbook I had lying around. I set up remote desktop so that I can now log on to the netbook from anywhere and monitor the live data and look at charts and so on. I plan to do the same with the UFT to help dial it in. I just wish I would have gotten to the install quicker, winter will soon be over.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Looks like you have the data collection side under control Bill!
    I like the $35 data logger idea.

    I'm not logging data on mine, but I have temp sensors on (6 in total) in the vital locations. I've been using these- found on ebay for under $4 each- I just leave them in temperature mode:


    I've had fun dialing in the ODR curve on my HTP UFT80W this winter... Excel was a huge help. Once we finally got into the real winter weather that went below our DD temps here I had to make some tweaks to my fall settings, but right now it's in condensing mode pretty much all the time except when heating the 30gal indirect tank.

    The only re-works I had to do on my system since the install last summer was to remove the crummy 1/2" IFC's in both of my Grundfos Alpha and 15-58 pumps and replace them with proper 1" inline flow checks from Caleffi and Webstone.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Rob, what's your take on the boiler db? I suppose at the price point you don't get soundproofing. A client mmentioned it was slightly louder than his old modcon.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    The UFT-80W is pretty quiet, especially once CH sepoint is reached and it starts modulating down. I have to look at the LCD display to see if the burner is actually firing when it's running at lower turndown levels or if it's just circulating water without the burner on. On low fire, I can hear the grundfos alpha running... and it's a pretty quiet pump when only pumping at 20 watts or so.

    No soundproofing on the UFT-80W, it's only a bit loud when firing at full 80K BTU's for DHW, but it usually satisfies the DHW call in under 10 min anyway, so it's not objectionable. There a are a few transitional fan speeds that resonate a harmonic on the exhaust fan... but it passes through those bands quickly.
    Hilly
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    Good detail thanks. This clients bedroom is on the other side of the mech room, so it's a little unorthodox compared the the more typical basement install. I suppose in the dead of the night he's hearing it.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    Rob, I like those temp sensors you have. I bet they come in handy for all sorts of things. This is the first time I've seen them. At that price I think I will pick up a few.

    I believe my data logger exports to excel and a couple other programs as well. I'm not sure that I have ever even used Excel. I have not looked into exporting yet, but I believe it would be very helpful. The program the device came with is not bad, but I think there's a lot of room for improvement when trying to zoom in and navigate charts on a long data thread. I suspect Excel or one of the other programs would be much better. As of now I've just remote viewed within the logger program. That's as fancy as I've gotten so far.

    I need to do a little rework on the Freestyle. prior to install I didn't catch that the first rad on the loop returns as the last rad. contractor Just plumbed the return back into the end of the loop the way it was originally piped. This short circuit is really affecting my deltaT. It's a very small rad so the return temp coming out of it is pretty close to the supply temp. it's a monoflow system so I'm going to just cut a return T back into the main loop where it is supposed to be, eliminating the short circuit. The only other thing I noticed was a monoflow T was placed in the wrong spot for one of the rads. it's now nothing more than a flow restriction due to it's location and orientation. I don't know what happened there, whether the helper did the fit up and the contractor didn't catch it or what. I think I'll be good to go once I get these two issues solved.

    I also have an IFC in my pump. Taco VT2218. I wonder if that's something I need to research.

    You said you had multiple pumps. is that just primary secondary or do you have zones? I'm looking forward to direct piping my UFT. although I have been pretty surprised how easy it was with my temp sensors and adjustable speed pumps to get my primary return temp to follow my secondary return. I'm glad I went with the VT2218
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    @NY_Rob you got a link for those temp sensors?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited January 2017
    On ebay search for "DS3231SN 3 in 1" for the temp sensors.
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=DS3231SN&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XDS3231SN+3+in+1.TRS1&_nkw=DS3231SN+3+in+1&_sacat=0

    BTW- they're all red display... no idea why they show three different colors... but you get red no matter what you order.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    I also have one of these $3 thermostat modules setup to electrically couple my shortest zone's (43ft fin tube) zone valve to another (52ft fin tube) zone valve when the outside temp rises above 40F outside to prevent short cycling... it's been working flawlessly.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/322353112192?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited January 2017
    Bill..
    -I'm piped direct with the UFT-80.
    -I have three zones w/zone valves using a Grundfos Alpha.
    -I have a 30 gal HTP SuperStore indirect tank for DHW, it uses a Grundfos 15-58 pump.

    I removed the built in flow checks from both pumps because one was not sealing completely after just six months use, and I figured the other might cause a problem later on down the line so I replaced both.
    There's a significant difference in the "feel" of the system with the larger aftermarket 1" Caleffi (inline) and Webstone (flange style) flow checks. They're both quieter then the tiny 1/2" oem IFC's and there's less turbulence because they're farther away from the pumps.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    Rob,

    Thanks for the additional info. I was originally going to go with a regular flow check but after some reading I went with the IFC. This was my first time being exposed to the small IFC's and I wondered about the size. After some more thought I may change mine out one day as well.

    while going back to ebay to look for those temp sensors, I found a number of gadgets that I missed the first time. like your $3 thermostat module. I can see a few cheap projects around the house in my future.

  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ I would have gone with the Caleffi inline flow check for both loops because it's a union connection and easy to service, but there just wasn't a good place for it in the spaceheating loop so I used the Webstone flange type flow check on the CH pump and the Caleffi in-line on the DHW loop.
    But, no matter what... they are both silent compared to the OEM IFC's.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    If you're going to use the $3 thermostat modules, you can get 10k ohm thermistors with nice long 4.5ft leads that will plug right into the board for a little over $1 each..
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/262241276080?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT





  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    Rob,

    Good to know on the temp sensors, thanks. I'm not sure what all I may do yet, but I'll probably buy a few to play around with.

    I will definitely check out those flow checks for the UFT system. I'll probably be purchasing most of the components later this week. I just got back about an hour ago from picking up the UFT. I'm going to unbox it shortly and begin to marvel at it.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Are you going with 2" or 3" venting Bill?
    HTP only includes 3" vent screens, if you plan to go with 2" venting you have to get those screens on your own.

    The Dirtmag is a must on this system, just by design the fire tube HX seems to generate micro bubbles at high loads (like full BTUs for DHW) so a good air separator is needed and the dirtmag is way better at straining than a y-strainer... so kill two birds. Make sure that both the spacheating and DHW supply go through the dirtmag, the install manual has it wrong in that regard.

    The HTP SS Ultra indirect is excellent and brain dead easy to install... the Grundfos 15-58 on speed II seems perfect for it. I used a sensor vs. aquastat in the indirect so the boiler doesn't overshoot on calls for DHW... it really works well in that regard.



  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    I was just going to go with 3" venting. No real reason behind my choice though. I did see the bird screens in the HTP bag which was a plus. I made the screens for the freestyle for next to nothing though.

    I was definitely planning to put a dirt mag on the heating loop being that I have cast iron rads, I figured it was critical on any mod con after researching them. I have one on the Freestyle that was just installed. Not one of the contractors I talked to in my area knew what I was talking about when I said I wanted a Dirtmag. After I explained what it is and why I need it, They pretty much just look at me like I'm an idiot lol. We're very slow to adopt new technology in just about every field around here. Often drives me crazy, but thankfully I can get online and figure things out by researching. Unfortunately I didn't start doing that soon enough. I've wasted so much money over the last ten years with two 145,000 BTU oil boilers in this building because multiple professionals told me that oil was the best option. Also that the boiler size was fine, my piping was fine and so on. when oil was up I've already blown through $1000 in oil in one month to heat one floor of the duplex. Just wish I would have got smart sooner and stopped listening to those guys. I could have taken advantage of the now gone tax credits to switch to NG and saved countless thousands on wasted on oil. but anyway... Definitely thankful to have found this site. As for the dirtmag on the domestic return I have never heard of that, interesting stuff here for sure. I had intended to pipe out the top and the bottom like the manual shows. I'll have to reassess. Speaking of the top and bottom supply/returns. Earlier I pulled the front cover off to look everything over well and take note of exactly what all was in there and how things were laid out. I noticed the bottom return has a temp sensor but the top return does not. Although the top and bottom piping is tied together, and the top return flow runs through the T above the sensor, the sensor is in the branch below and not in the flow path. I thought that was odd that it appears to be for the bottom return only.

    I was just looking at the Super stores a little bit ago. I haven't done much research yet, but based on the price my initial list is the Super store, Weil Aqua plus and Triangle tube Smart. The SS costing about 16% more than the Weil. If they're all equal in quality and function, then 16% is something to consider. If the SS has any advantage, I probably won't worry about the price difference. One plus so far, sounds like your setup is working well. Can you explain more about your sensor setup that you used instead of the aquastat?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ Just to be clear Bill.... the Dirtmag goes in the common supply before it splits off for the spacing and DHW loops. The HTP manual shows the spaceheating and DHW as independent loops with one off the top boiler connections and the other off the bottom boiler connections with the Dirtmag only on the top supply for the spaceheating loop. The problem is that during the spring/summer/fall when there is no call for spaceheating... your DHW tank loop water isn't going through the Dirtmag if you pipe according to the HTP diagrams in the install manual so you get micro-bubbles with no way to remove them and no filtering for three out of four seasons.

    My layout is the same as in the HTP brochure as far as the CH rertun sensor... so no matter if you use the top or bottom or both return connections the temp sensor is in the return stream.



    For the DHW tank, you can use an aquastat or simple sensor ( a plain old thermistor with a metal rod that locks it in the tank's heatwell). You then set the boiler for aquastat or sensor in the install menu. The aquastat is basically and on/off connection vs. the analog input from the sensor. If you use the sensor the boiler's system board tracks the temp rise in the tank and makes adjustments as needed to prevent overshoot vs. the aquastat input that only tells the boiler call for DHW or call satisfied. The sensor is by far the better way to go, and it's actually less expensive than the aquastat. They list the part number in the install manual under "optional equipment".. Indirect Tank Sensor (Part # 7250P-325).
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    Thanks Rob, I did get what you were saying about the dirtmag. sorry I didn't make that more clear. I had just never heard or thought of that before, and had originally planned on piping it like the manual shows. What you say makes complete sense though.

    Thanks for explaining the sensor setup. I never looked in to how an aquastat functions. So I was not aware that it was simply on/off. I will definitely go with a sensor. another great tip.

    As for my return temp sensor, no wonder it didn't make sense. apparently we have a problem over here.


  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    I wonder how many other UFT's HTP has out there with the sensor in the wrong place.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ yikes... good thing you took a look around.

    Get out the wrench!

    Looks like they updated the condensate trap... mine has a full metal cover with 3 screws on the bottom which must be removed in order to service the trap... it a PITA to service.
    Would you mind snapping a photo of yours from below so I can see the details of the underside of the new condensate trap?

    Speaking of the condensate trap... the manual states to "prime it" before commissioning... it's a time consuming awkward procedure. One of the highly respected members here with the same boiler and HTP tech support both told me the same thing... don't bother priming it. It will fill up quickly on first fire-up... so save yourself some time and aggravation and skip the prime.

  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    Well then I'm glad they changed the trap. sounds like overkill on the first design. This is what mine looks like.


    I wondered about priming those traps. seemed pretty unnecessary but I suppose I can understand them putting it in the manual so they are covered. Thanks for tip.

    Could you tell me what fittings I would need to put that temp sensor in the superstor?
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
    From what have heard from WM reps is that most manufacturers originally having SS in the condensate stream learned that it didn't hold up well, and redesigned all condensate collecting apparatuses to be plastic. Mostly polypropylene I believe. I would assume that is where the all plastic trap comes in.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119

    From what have heard from WM reps is that most manufacturers originally having SS in the condensate stream learned that it didn't hold up well, and redesigned all condensate collecting apparatuses to be plastic. Mostly polypropylene I believe. I would assume that is where the all plastic trap comes in.

    Sounds logical
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited February 2017
    Thanks for the photo Bill, the new design for the trap is much easier to access... mine literally has a metal cup over the bottom of the plastic trap that has to be removed to gain access.

    The sensor for the indirect just gets shoved into the temperature well on the tank... the metal shaft forms a spring and holds the whole thing in place... no fittings needed. The only thing extra you need is heat conductive compound that you fill the well with prior to inserting the probe (be sure to wear disposable gloves... that stuff is nasty to get off your skin!!).
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    You're welcome Rob. Thanks for all the tips, info and pics.

    Good to know. I've not looked at one of those wells in person so I had no idea. Gloves on standby. Thanks again
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    FWIW.. the SS Ultra 30 gal doesn't come with the T & P relief valve.. you have to supply your own :/
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    I thought I read that last night on the listing for the 45 gal as well. I'm not seeing it now but I'll assume it doesn't either.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 143
    I saw the comments on temp sensors. Before I dive into Google mode, are there simple temp readouts I can surface attach to copper pipe? Maybe not as ideal as a 'wet' gauge on a T.
    We just finished a Buderus GC144 install and I did not catch them in time to request adding on a T on the return to the boiler.
    I want observe return water temperature while cleaning the baseboard fins, adding insulation to non finned pipes, etc.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 143
    Any suggestions for battery powered LED surface mounts that works better?
    I may try a couple of these 'mechanical' ones for getting a general idea of supply and return temps and also at beginning and end of loops. Don't need 100% accuracy and should be useful enough. Suppose to come with thermal paste but I have extras for electronics.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ When I first got the $4 LED thermometers (the ones shown in three colors in my above post) I experimented with them.
    I placed one on my desk with the thermistor straight up in the air... as soon as I moved my open palm within 5mm of the sensor I could see an immediate temperature rise on the display.

    They are very sensitive, certainly good enough to black tape the thermistor to a copper pipe and finish off with foam insulation.
    Hilly
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 143
    Thank you. Have a infrared thermometer but there are too many variables to consider for emissivity to get an accurate non-contact reading. I will look in eBay for the ones you showed.
    Also found Viega's suface contact analog gauges that is wrapped on with spring wire and comes with thermal paste.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 143
    Looked at the eBay listing. Description states the temp range is up to 120F. Does that sound right in your use? I would need it to be 170-180. I see a button cell but not sure which type.
  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 143
    I will also try the black tape trick on copper for the infrared reader.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited February 2017

    Looked at the eBay listing. Description states the temp range is up to 120F. Does that sound right in your use? I would need it to be 170-180. I see a button cell but not sure which type.

    Some of the ebay listing don't clearly indicate it, but the range is:
    -40 to 120 degrees Celsius, so that's -40F to 248F.

  • swvawethead
    swvawethead Member Posts: 143
    edited February 2017
    Infrared to black tape didn't translate so well. Maybe try flat black instead of the one I tried with a slight sheen to it. Anyway, some sort of surface contact thermometer will be better and I would like to try the LED with the thermistor.

    Is the -40 to 120 temperature range in C or F?
    Does not seem to mention which in the description.

    The analog/mechanical surface mount thermometers seem to be prone to being inconsistent from one to another if several are bought at the same time.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370

    Is the -40 to 120 temperature range in C or F?
    Does not seem to mention which in the description

    They display temp in C (Celsius).