1" or 11/4" near boiler piping and manifold?

swvawethead

NY_Rob - Thank you for confirming the 'C'.
Will try a handful of them and appreciate you mentioning them.

swvawethead

Sorry - just one more Q.
What type button cell is that? One or two stacked?

swvawethead

Ordered 10 to give a few to a friend with two boilers in a rental and I have two systems. Will take a month from China and they will show up after forgetting about ordering them.

Bill751

swvawethead,

I wish I would have put Tee's on the Freestyle as well, but I also thought about it after the install was done. I'm going to put them on the UFT system. I'm curious to see the difference between my surface readings and wet readings. In the future I'll have that info.

Black tape and infrared.

I tried that before I bought the data logger. If I remember correctly I was able to get fairly close to the readings my Taco VT2218 was giving me. I meant to check again and compare it with the data logger readings. I forgot to do that. Just out of curiosity I'll try to remember to do that next time I'm near the boiler. Did you take extra care to try to zero in on tape by moving the gun very slowly perpendicular to the pipe to find the infrared sweet spot? This took a little playing around with my infrared gun, distance and moving it around. If I just tried to go by the laser pointer, the reading was way off. warmer than the surroundings and backdrop, but not accurate. also I think my tape is somewhere in the middle between shiny and flat, but leaning more toward flat black.

swvawethead

re - Did you take extra care to try to zero in on tape by moving the gun very slowly perpendicular to the pipe to find the infrared sweet spot?

That is an great question I hadn't considered.
Now I realize the laser is only a pointing aid and probably not in perfect alignment with the sensor. Thank you for bringing that up. You having pointed that out, I suppose the sensor coverage area widens or narrows corresponding to distance.
I put only a small piece of tape on the pipe and was pointing the laser from several feet away, having gotten plenty of practice aiming it to drive the cat crazy.
In the end it's best to get a contact sensor if a T/wet gauge is not feasible but I will indeed follow your most excellent suggestion.
Thank you!

rick in Alaska

I carry around a can of flat black spray paint for models to paint the pipe with so I can get a good reading. If you do it right and tape around the fitting so you can get a nice crisp line, it won't look too bad. Anything that is shiny is a bad surface to try and get a reading off of.
Rick

Bill751

swvawethead said:

re - Did you take extra care to try to zero in on tape by moving the gun very slowly perpendicular to the pipe to find the infrared sweet spot?

That is an great question I hadn't considered.
Now I realize the laser is only a pointing aid and probably not in perfect alignment with the sensor. Thank you for bringing that up. You having pointed that out, I suppose the sensor coverage area widens or narrows corresponding to distance.
I put only a small piece of tape on the pipe and was pointing the laser from several feet away, having gotten plenty of practice aiming it to drive the cat crazy.
In the end it's best to get a contact sensor if a T/wet gauge is not feasible but I will indeed follow your most excellent suggestion.
Thank you!

Haha yes cats arch enemy!

I'm sure it varies a little from gun to gun but mine gives a good reading almost touching the pipe. experiment up close while moving perpendicular to zero in. And you are correct, the further away you get the wider area it seems to take a reading from. I believe mine had a chart in the instructions that showed width over distance. I also used two pieces of tape running parallel with the pipe several inches long to give a good coverage area. This is on a 1" pipe. I may have needed 3 pieces on a 1 1/4". I just wanted to be sure there wasn't any bare copper facing the gun. so I covered about 180 degrees of the pipe.

Yes agree the other options are better no doubt, but this should get you close in the time being.

Bill751

rick in Alaska said:

I carry around a can of flat black spray paint for models to paint the pipe with so I can get a good reading. If you do it right and tape around the fitting so you can get a nice crisp line, it won't look too bad. Anything that is shiny is a bad surface to try and get a reading off of.
Rick

Good idea. Looks a lot better than tape too

swvawethead

re - for models to paint the pipe with

Thanks for that great tip but what you mean by models?

And Bill751 - it all makes sense now that you pointed me in the right direction. Not paying attention to the package that does show the coverage angle I started using it and assumed where the laser is pointed is the pinpoint spot the temp is measured.
Duh.

rick in Alaska

It is just a small spray can of paint used for painting plastic models that you assemble from a kit.
Rick

Bill751

swvawethead said:

re - for models to paint the pipe with

Thanks for that great tip but what you mean by models?

And Bill751 - it all makes sense now that you pointed me in the right direction. Not paying attention to the package that does show the coverage angle I started using it and assumed where the laser is pointed is the pinpoint spot the temp is measured.
Duh.

I think that's fairly common with those things. We just get stuff out of the package and start playing. sometimes we go back and read the package/ directions, sometimes not. ha. Once I've checked mine against my senors I'll post back the difference.

swvawethead

Ah - ok. I did not think about scale models. I did wonder about a smaller alternative to the full size Krylons. Another great tip and thanks! Will get one of those.

Bill751 - As for black tape and targeting area, sure enough your suggestion was very helpful. Applied more tape and aimed closer and was able to get consistently close matches to the readings from the AquaSmart display and the analog temp and pressure dial on the boiler supply.

Bill751

swvawethead said:

Ah - ok. I did not think about scale models. I did wonder about a smaller alternative to the full size Krylons. Another great tip and thanks! Will get one of those.

Bill751 - As for black tape and targeting area, sure enough your suggestion was very helpful. Applied more tape and aimed closer and was able to get consistently close matches to the readings from the AquaSmart display and the analog temp and pressure dial on the boiler supply.

Excellent, good to hear

Bill751

Rob,

I just had another thought, which led to a question. Are you firing 100% during a domestic call? I had not thought to research that until now. I'm going to assume that may be typical to high fire if it's not overkill. If that is the case then I would not not get 100,000 btu's with my 1" pipe. I doubt I would ever need to fire anywhere near 100% to keep up with demand at the stated recovery rates. All considered I wonder how a pro would pipe the domestic on a 100,000 btu boiler, 1 or 1 1/4"

NY_Rob

I'm firing at 100% rate for DHW at 170F on my UFT-80W.
My 30gal HTP SS Ultra has 1" connections and coil.

Boiler install manual recommends 7.6gpm rate for 80K BTU output. Specs list boiler head at 1.5' @ 6GPM and 2' @ 7GPM and the SS-Utra 30 gal is listed at 6'... I have a minimum amount of 1" copper (no pex) and not many bends between the boiler and SS-Ultra so I calculate a tad under 9' head total. On my DHW pump- Grundfos 15-58, speed II gives me almost exactly 7GPM.
I've experimented with speed I on a DHW call and I can hear a bit of percolating in the HX, and speed III gives me a little rushing sound in the pipes... so speed II seems perfect with no percolating or rushing sounds.

If you hear percolating on a full fire DHW call, try increasing pump speed (if you go with a multi speed pump) or limit the fire rate on DHW calls down a bit. That's the nice part about a mod-con... you can set just about every parameter there is to suite your needs.

FWIW- I do limit space heating fire rate to 65% (of 80K BTU's) and I enabled step-modulation to increase burn times.

Bill751

Thanks for the info Rob. I am not sure of my boiler room layout yet, I'm still debating a few small things which affect placement. Even so I expect to have minimal piping as well for the indirect. But I don't know exactly how much and exactly what fittings I'll use until I decide the layout and placement of everything.

I was thinking that if I was firing at 100% then I could stop right there and just say 1" is to small for the domestic due to the basic rules of hydronics. To try to move 100,000 btu through a 1" pipe I would have to overpump it and exceed maximum safe flow rates. Unless I misunderstood something along the way. Not sure but that high flow rate also may not be good for heat transfer in the coil? 1" is around 70,000 max if I remember correctly ( scatter brained this week) Being that I'm 20,000 more than you, it seems I would be cutting myself short by using 1" . Is it just that simple or am I missing something?

If using 1 1/4" is the way to go for the indirect then I'm right back to where I started since we talked about running both the CH and DHW through the dirt mag. I guess I could come out of the boiler 1 1/4" into a reducing Tee for the CH. Or just go ahead and pipe the whole thing 1 1/4", possibly into 1" manifolds to at least save some money there. I never wanted to get to carried away about trying to save money, and definitely not over function, but when I thought there may be an opportunity to shave off a good bit, I figured why not. maybe I'm just about back to where I started now haha.

NY_Rob

When in doubt... refer to the manual.
Looks like you're good with 1" piping for the DHW indirect...

Bill751

Thanks Rob, I did see that in the manual and I also think questioned this in the original post. As of now it's just left me confused. if a 1" pipe can only move 70,000 btu's how can 1" pipe be used on a 140,000 btu boiler? clearly there's something I am not understanding.

NY_Rob

It's 70K BTU's at 7GPM and 140K BTU's at 14GPM.
If the pump was only moving 2GPM it would only be good for 20K BTU's.

Bill751

But isn't the maximum safe flow rate for 1" copper 10.9 GPM or 4 FT/SC? possibly I read other places it was 4.5 ft/sc. is this information wrong? going by the numbers you posted above, I would still be just under the maximum amount for 100k, but 140k would not. and if we ignore that for a second to ask this question, why is it stated that 1" pipe can only deliver roughly 70,000 btu's and that if you need to deliver more than that, you must use larger pipe? To me it looks like I have a lot of conflicting information. So it's left me a little confused.

NY_Rob

I remember reading a post on The Wall that stated..
"In the HX industry the maximum save velocity for copper tubing is 7 Ft/second. There are literally millions of copper tubed heat exchangers out there - and have been for many decades."

That would give you about 17GPM max using 1" copper.
That actually agrees with the above chart from HTP because for 16.6GPM they recommend 1.25" pipe.

If you limited the flow rate to 4ft/sec and used type "L" 1" copper pipe with a 1.025" ID that would give you 10.288 GPM anyway... so you'd still be way under the max for your setup.

Here's the online calculator:
http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm

Here's the copper tubing size chart:
http://www.petersenproducts.com/category-s/1979.htm

Bill751

I have read it also different places where people state HX or HX industry, but there are also charts out their that just state maximum flow rates for copper pipe or tubing, and pex tubing and so on. So I took those as to be a general rule for pipe itself, not specifically a HX. and some of those do say 4 or 4.5. So it seems they're all over the place with this.

I still am unclear why it's stated on the wall and other places that you must upsize the pipe to deliver over 70k.

With all the conflicting information floating around, I'm going to have to get one of the walls recommended books. I appreciate all your help trying to make sense of this for me.

Bill751

Thanks for the addition info. took me a second to see you edited your last reply. At first I wondered how I missed half of it.

Nice little calculator thanks.

In case you haven't seen this and are interested. The beginning is a lot of how to, but the back has all sorts of data. https://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

I just took a look on page 14 of the above link.
Water Velocity Limitations
To avoid excessive system noise and the possibility
of erosion-corrosion, the designer should not exceed
flow velocities of 8 feet per second for cold water and
5 feet per second in hot water up to approximately
140°F. In systems where water temperatures
routinely exceed 140°F, lower flow velocities such
as 2 to 3 feet per second should not be exceeded.

seems everyone disagrees on max flow.

Yes I do see that I would be under the more conservative 4ft/sc since you showed me that. So I guess that just leaves me with the one question of why is it said on the wall that 70k is max for 1" That is going to bug me until I find the answer. I'm going to have to do some searching on that topic again. I'm not sure anyone gave the technical reason why, I've just seen it stated as fact and agreed upon.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Remember those numbers are based on a 20 degree delta. At a larger delta that 10gpm in 1" copper can move well over 100,000 btu.

20delta =100,000

40delta = 200,000 btu in 1" copper!

Bill751

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Remember those numbers are based on a 20 degree delta. At a larger delta that 10gpm in 1" copper can move well over 100,000 btu.



20delta =100,000



40delta = 200,000 btu in 1" copper!

I was just re reading up on this trying to sort that out. Isn't it fairly unusual to achieve a real world 20dt? especially when you're using existing emitters and not a total redesign? so if I'm only getting a 5dt then I'm only moving 25k. I don't know enough at the moment without further research to know what kind of DT would be achievable with the 45 gallon superstor. I guess that's what I need to know

Bill751

Hatterasguy said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Remember those numbers are based on a 20 degree delta. At a larger delta that 10gpm in 1" copper can move well over 100,000 btu.



20delta =100,000



40delta = 200,000 btu in 1" copper!

Sadly, that analysis doesn't work for an indirect.

With a tank temperature of 140F and a SWT of 180F, the AWT in the coil is only 160F and the boiler could never deliver 200K unless the tank is stone cold.

You fellows are hung up on transmittal capability of copper pipe when you need to be looking at transmittal capability of the coil at a specific DT (difference between tank temperature and AWT).

The reason to flow faster and get a DT of 10 in an indirect is to raise the AWT with the hope of keeping the transmittal up. It's a losing proposition, however. Double the flow rate and obtain just slightly higher AWT. No, you'll never double the BTU transfer.

Would you then have a recommendation on pipe size and flow rate for a UFT-100 to a 45 gallon superstor?

Solid_Fuel_Man

@Hatterasguy and @Bill751 it was just hypothetical.

Hat makes the argument for AWT and it works most of the time. I have a 115 gal indirect with generous coil size, I get a huge delta of 40 degrees, but with approximately 4gpm. I'd keep flow low and keep condensing more as I have plenty of capacity and have no need for fast recovery.

With high mass radiant, large cast radiators, a 20 degree delta is easily achievable if one doesn't over pump.

Bill751

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@Hatterasguy and @Bill751 it was just hypothetical.



Hat makes the argument for AWT and it works most of the time. I have a 115 gal indirect with generous coil size, I get a huge delta of 40 degrees, but with approximately 4gpm. I'd keep flow low and keep condensing more as I have plenty of capacity and have no need for fast recovery.



With high mass radiant, large cast radiators, a 20 degree delta is easily achievable if one doesn't over pump.

I knew CI's were certainly in my favor but I had thought many people had trouble achieving the high delta the majority of the time due to having the flow set high enough for HX protection during max fire. As for the indirects, I haven't done much research on that yet.

Bill751

Hatterasguy said:

Bill751 said:

Hatterasguy said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Remember those numbers are based on a 20 degree delta. At a larger delta that 10gpm in 1" copper can move well over 100,000 btu.



20delta =100,000



40delta = 200,000 btu in 1" copper!

Sadly, that analysis doesn't work for an indirect.

With a tank temperature of 140F and a SWT of 180F, the AWT in the coil is only 160F and the boiler could never deliver 200K unless the tank is stone cold.

You fellows are hung up on transmittal capability of copper pipe when you need to be looking at transmittal capability of the coil at a specific DT (difference between tank temperature and AWT).

The reason to flow faster and get a DT of 10 in an indirect is to raise the AWT with the hope of keeping the transmittal up. It's a losing proposition, however. Double the flow rate and obtain just slightly higher AWT. No, you'll never double the BTU transfer.

Would you then have a recommendation on pipe size and flow rate for a UFT-100 to a 45 gallon superstor?

Use the 1" pipes as previously suggested. The coil is 1" and that is the limiting factor.

The flow rate is dictated by the available pump. If you use a 15-58 on the highest speed, you'll get about 11 GPM on that short loop. If the indirect will accept 85K (the output of the UFT-100), you'll get a DT of about 15. It isn't worth the coin to attempt a larger pump to try to force the DT down to 10.

Note that the transfer depends on the difference in SWT and tank temperature. If you store at 160F, there is no way the indirect will ever accept 85K once the tank climbs above about 140F. If you store at 130F, the tank will accept every one of those 85K BTU's (with a SWT of 180F of course).

I installed a 35 gallon SSC with 1" piping and a 15-58 with the UFT-80. Storing at about 150F. The boiler modulates down to about 3000 rpm near the end of the call. Why? The SSC cannot accept 68K when the DT has narrowed down to about 25F. Using 1.25" piping isn't going to change that outcome.

Thank you. I wasn't sure if the original recommendation stood since I assumed that was based on my limited output of the emitters. I hadn't even thought about the indirect piping at that time or I would have asked then. I also did not know how many BTU's the indirect could eat. Thanks for clearing it up and explaining.

Bill751

Got it. slow as possible and HX allowable for the CH. Glad I don't have to overcome all the challenges of a low mass system. seems the only real downside to CI rads is being the guy who has to install them.

Solid_Fuel_Man

The CI rads I have on my second floor are perfectly happy with a SWT of 120 and would keep a mod-con very happy.

Reality is that I burn wood in an extremely efficient down draft gassifier and have a 150 degree RWT as a minimum. Primary secondary with a 0010 keeps RWT up. I designed my own system to leverage a mod-con if I even get one for backup heat. Or solar, of HP, etc.

I'm a big fan of low temp, high mass systems. Just need the correct controls.

NY_Rob

Bill751 said:

Got it. slow as possible and HX allowable for the CH. Glad I don't have to overcome all the challenges of a low mass system.

The HTP UFT cabinets aren't insulated, so it's easy to hear how the HX is reacting to heating loads/flow rates.
If you hear hissing/percolating at max fire rate... increase flow.

Bill751

Rob, Thanks for the tip. I was going to pull the trigger on the superstor today but ended up throwing another contender in the mix. Before I talk about that though, I will say that if I am understanding the Weil Mclain brochure correctly, then It may not be for me. it says it has a "thermostat knob" So an aquastat. being that I can't look at it in person, I don't know if it's easily converted to use a sensor. *Edit- Do all tanks and or this one use dry wells? I guess that's all I really need to know. The only plus I saw over the other contenders was the tank has an anode.

The tank I've thrown into the mix is a Lochinvar Squire. unlike the superstor it comes with a t&p relief and sensor. The brochure wasn't 100% clear to me with the statement "This sensor
is 100% compatible and can be directly connected with
Lochinvar’s line of KNIGHT Heating Boilers" is the supplied sensor 100% compatible with all boilers that accept a sensor? or are they only referring to Lochinvars boilers? to me it reads they're referring to their own boilers, but that's not to say one way or the other whether it is or isn't compatible with all manufacturers. if it's just a basic two lead sensor then it should be compatible with all correct? It looks like the Squire is highly recommended on the wall. when taking into account the sensor, t&p and unit cost, the squire is 20% less than a Superstor for a well liked and recommended unit. Sounds like maybe it should be top on the list.

Bill751

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

The CI rads I have on my second floor are perfectly happy with a SWT of 120 and would keep a mod-con very happy.



Reality is that I burn wood in an extremely efficient down draft gassifier and have a 150 degree RWT as a minimum. Primary secondary with a 0010 keeps RWT up. I designed my own system to leverage a mod-con if I even get one for backup heat. Or solar, of HP, etc.



I'm a big fan of low temp, high mass systems. Just need the correct controls.

Later this year I will probably start researching all the above mentioned options. I may be moving to a house that has a wood burner and a separate stand alone oil furnace. They're interconnected to each other through highly inefficient add on ductwork. Everything about the system and setup is not ideal or efficient. it's a two story house but has no heat on the second story. it just relies on heat rising up the stairway. It's not as cold upstairs as I would imagine it to be. When I checked a few times this winter it was about 5 degrees cooler than the 1 st floor. Being that I want to add heat upstairs I am definitely considering converting and getting away from forced air. The layout is not practical for ducting to the second floor, piping seems more ideal. I don't even want to begin really thinking about and researching all the options yet. But when the time comes I'll be looking at all the options you mentioned above.

swvawethead

Adding this after seeing mention of adding heat upstairs. I have been for several years intrigued by the concept of strategically positioned vertical duct work for exchanging air between upper and lower levels of a structure. There is a fan for facilitating air movement up or down during heating and cooling season. This is only for exchanging air between floor levels and not connected to any cooling or heating source. I believe the trade jargon for this is stack exchange. Some setups are passive they rely on convective airflow. And I have seen thermostatically operated air movement fans for moving conditioned air between rooms on the same floor for split systems.

Bill751

swvawethead said:

Adding this after seeing mention of adding heat upstairs. I have been for several years intrigued by the concept of strategically positioned vertical duct work for exchanging air between upper and lower levels of a structure. There is a fan for facilitating air movement up or down during heating and cooling season. This is only for exchanging air between floor levels and not connected to any cooling or heating source. I believe the trade jargon for this is stack exchange. Some setups are passive they rely on convective airflow. And I have seen thermostatically operated air movement fans for moving conditioned air between rooms on the same floor for split systems.

Interesting. I hadn't given something like that a thought. As close as the second floor currently follows the first, I could probably get away with a central forced air duct and let it return down the steps. Not sure I'd want to go that route, but It's a cheap option to improve on what's there. I have been in a few homes over the years that have have floor grates and a simple short vertical duct between that and the first floor ceiling. Horrible for privacy though as all sounds flow freely between rooms.

swvawethead

NY_Rob:
Arrived in the mail today were ten (!) of the eBay temp sensor/LED readouts you mentioned.
Sorry to ask these questions...

I cannot get the thing to turn on.
I am guessing the battery needs to be flipped over for it to provide power. Maybe shipped this way so as not to drain the battery.

I blanked out and did not order the 4.5' leads you also mentioned and unfortunately now they are listed as out of stock.
But these came packaged with a 8" lead that is bare wire and on one end has the connector for the two prongs on the board.
Guess the black sensor (thermistor?) has to be desoldered and soldered to the wires for gaining 8" of extension?

NY_Rob

^ the built in battery is just for clock & temp offset memory- it's pre-installed correctly. The device needs 12V DC to run and illuminate the display... see photo.
Mine came with a short 8" red/black pigtail lead with the dual pin female connector in the package... yours did too... connect that to 12VDC and the device will fire up.

The long lead thermistors were for the other (heating/cooling relay) device I mentioned. They could be used the device below with a little effort... you'd just have to desolder or cut the OEM thermistor lead and connect the long lead thermistor in it's place.

swvawethead

NY_Rob.
Duh, ok. Thank you for clearing that up.
Sorry to ask this but where would I tap into for the 12V power source? A transformer block? An external battery?

Silly me I thought these things were basically tape on and ready to roll gizmos. Still looking forward to seeing them in action as soon as I get the power source worked out.

swvawethead

I see 12VDC power supply blocks with connector plugs.
And also 12VDC power supply 'boxes' with multiple connectors for bare wires.
How do you have yours powered?