HELP: HTP Phoenix Light Duty doesn’t fire up

My personal experience with vents on regulators was my own. I kept smelling gas intermittently by the meter. Narrowed it down to the vent.

Nicor comes out after I called. The field tech said that was normal. I said really? Then how come I have never smelled it before in the last 12 years? How many CF of gas do you lose in how many homes a year if you consider this normal? Guess who got a new regulator that day.

It's amazing how you have to convince somebody their equipment which all though works is not operating correctly, and it's costing them money it needs replaced.

@Leon82

Is your gas bill low?

That's normal. Older meters do that.

OMG! You absolutely can not vent the regulator like that! I know there are issues with gas meters installed inside basements. In our area the install the venting regulator outside. That is in violation of a few codes federal and the like...That flexible tubing is connected to the vent on the regulator. Sizing vent discharge pipe should only be performed by an engineer...

Yes I figured that below is the language from the regulator you have...
Vent Lines for Regulators
When constructing vent lines to attach to regulators installed indoors, follow a few basic rules:
a. Never use pipe sizes smaller than the vent size; smaller pipe sizes restrict the gas flow. If a long gas run must be used, Itron advises increasing the pipe one nominal size every ten feet to keep the flow restriction as low as possible.
b. Keeptheventlinelengthasshortaspossibletominimizetherestrictionandreducethevent'stendencyto cause regulator pulsation.
c. Support the vent pipe to eliminate strain on the regulator diaphragm case.
d. Always point outdoor vent pipes in the downward position to reduce the possibility of rain, snow, sleet, and other moisture entering the pipe. Install a bug screen in the end of the pipe.
e. Do not locate the vent line terminus near windows, fans, or other ventilation equipment. See the installation instructions furnished with the regulator.
f. Adhere to all applicable codes and regulations.
g. If your vent pipe causes regulator pulsation, consult your sales representative or manufacturer.
h. Itronstronglyrecommendsrunningaseparateventlineforeachregulator.Headerswithvariousinstalled devices can cause regulator malfunction.

They could have installed that with the vent port facing up and eliminated the corrugated 180° friction increaser. Vent pipe sizing is still in question.

There's also a potential venturi effect risk when the vent exit is on a building wall with prevailing winds in the right direction.

I would examin the electrode, i have seen a spark ignitor arc too high on the electrode and even outside of the combustion chamber thru the insulation.

I believe Alan tested the actual inlet and outlet of the gas valve on the HTP. The 2" drop through that test is indicative of a gas supply issue. The on again off again description you observed is exactly what the regulator manufacturer describes as "regulator pulsation"....The proper function of the regulator is flawed with the vent piping arrangement that can be verified through the regulator manufacturer. That venting is absolutely prohibited in New Jersey and certainly fails to comply with the first few rules listed that I pasted right from the regulators brochure.

In the video he posted, there is enough pressure to fire that thing. There was .5 - .75" WC pressure drop feeding the gas valve, and it would not fire. It attempted to fire, and if it couldn't, the problem is at the gas valve. Ignore all the other BS. Based on common sense troubleshooting..... where's the red "X" ?

Gotta be methodical; there may be multiple things going on.

Gas supply seems fine, but I would turn on all appliances and run the test in your video again just to be sure the regulator still regulates at higher gas flows. It's probably fine, but I'm conservative.

Check gas line and gas valve inlet for debris. Check install instructions for any packing items that are to be removed before operation.

Make double sure the vent is clear and there isn't a restrictive vent cap or the vent is too narrow for the length of the vent. The specs are in the instructions. In one of my buildings wind was messing with the exhaust- windy in SF. Something to keep in mind.

Check for any error codes. If none, it should be ok. Might want to ask HTP if there are any combustion sensors not monitored. Doubt it.

Check the ignition electrode. It seems to light, but could be misfiring sometimes like others suggested.

Recheck/tune the throttle/bypass/adjustments. PG&E has analyzers your people can borrow, if needed.

Take videos for documentation.

If still no good, have HTP send you a new gas valve.

My 2 cents.

this is quite a saga! and to the list of things to check, I'd add to take a look into the combustion chamber to see if anything's funky in there.

I had an early Phoenix Lite that was a bit of a nightmare story for me and my client. at one juncture it was either not firing up or if it did, was a "hard start" with explosive backfire. sounded like a 22 being shot off in the mechanical/laundry room. after unfortunate amount of time trying to diagnose with assistance from distributor and HTP, HTP sent a new burner unit and motherboard (which was needed for other reasons). when I pulled out the burner I discovered that the ceramic "donut" heat shield in the combustion chamber had broken (probably due to the hard starts, but who knows) and was lying in pieces in the chamber. started up a lot nicer once that was replaced. (there were multiple issues on this unit - no idea how it left factory in such dysfunctional condition and I came nowhere near recovering my costs trying to deal with it ... but that's another story).

looking forward to hearing how this one turns out & feeling the frustration of those involved, esp the homeowner, SanFranTH.

The only way to know for sure is to re adjust everything Alan did to rule out the regulator. If it was related to the regulator the settings now are not going to work.

HeatingMaven said:

John, first time poster here, but an avid lurker. I have to ask - you and Rich have promoted and defended HTP products time after time. Can I ask if either of you have any financial connection to HTP whatsoever, e.g. promotional or consulting arrangements?

NONE WHAT SO EVER . Before starting to use HTP products several years ago we researched and found a company that recognized where many contractors were lacking and they were making products to assist those by using mass , employing different strategies and having very good customer support . We visited the factory , talked with guys who work there and use a rep agency also for best available support . HTP just went through a major growth event and knowing what I know about the folks at HTP on a level few have with manufacturers I would venture a guess that they will overcome the growing pains that I sincerely hope are what is being suffered from at present .

Remarkable thing is that the very few issues we have had with HTP products were usually the cause of something other than the product . A few loose sensors , a bad board , one unit with a water quality issue because water company did nothing with their mains after Sandy . Nothing like some of the issues we have seen talked about here . I will continue to perform the design work that I do along with the PROPER DUE DILLIGENCE and design SYSTEMS and continue to use HTP until at least I begin to see the same issues as others (doubtful) and cannot get satisfactory support ( also doubtful) . Any other insulting questions may be asked now .

Could something the original Qualified INSTALLER may have done or not done have contributed to this issue . I have seen several times where we were asked to go troubleshoot others units that things were done poorly , too long vents , exhausts too close to inside corners , gas run improperly . Truth is , we have no idea what the first guy did except for to walk out on the OP without handling the issue .

Has the OP made any inquiries to a local rep agency or to HTP for replacement of this unit ? Hell, they still replace Munchkins with bad HXs due to lack of maintenance at the stated pro rating on the warranty . I advise contacting Westinghouse and getting that ball rolling immediately .

I'll go along with others who think this product is not at fault. Something is not correct with the install; not to blame the original installer. If you're an installing plumber, you're used to plug-and-play. For me at this point, I'd like to check the exhaust piping for the proper termination or perhaps debris, but I have not been asked to return to do further testing.
I would love to get closure!

I asked my grandmother......she says it's the Russians.

What a punch in the face

Wish we knew more...wide angle shot of the install. What was the installing contractors experience...I've been called in to clean up lots of messes and I may be more tenacious than most. One way or another I get to the bottom of it. Right now Im 2 weeks into a problem with a NATCO / Laars hot water boiler for a laundromat. Just received another part (for free) after getting to know tech support guys. I set a breaking point and this is the last attempt before replacing. The cost to pull and clean heat ex will put us over the preset spending limit..the tipping point.

I should add nothing wrong with the product...problems are a direct result of no maintenance mostly prior to current owners...

I agree with Gordy, from the consumers end all they see is no hot water over and over. A qualified tech has looked at it once, the utility has said no problem with fuel supply. So naturally they felt they got a lemon. Now if Alan did not have time to verify a few things, it is too bad that they have not had him back but I totally understand there consensus.