HELP: HTP Phoenix Light Duty doesn’t fire up

Rich_49

Nothing like having to explain to a gas company employee that their 415 gas meter that has a 1/2' wc pd through it now has a 2 " wc pd because you took out a 36,000 water heater and replaced it with a 199,000 Tankless unit . Load was 400 K with the atmospheric , went to 563K with Rinnai . This is a job John and I were called to about 8 years ago by another plumber wanting to know why this thing kept having lockouts on ignition . That was in fact the problem , so don't for a minute think that gas utility employees are any better trained than the average hack . Had to call their technical training manager and explain it to him , he got it right away and had the meter changed to a Rockwell 750 , never another problem .

Gordy

My personal experience with vents on regulators was my own. I kept smelling gas intermittently by the meter. Narrowed it down to the vent.

Nicor comes out after I called. The field tech said that was normal. I said really? Then how come I have never smelled it before in the last 12 years? How many CF of gas do you lose in how many homes a year if you consider this normal? Guess who got a new regulator that day.

It's amazing how you have to convince somebody their equipment which all though works is not operating correctly, and it's costing them money it needs replaced.

Leon82

OT, but my meter makes a squeaking noise during high draws. like something is spinning and will squeak during a small point of the rotation. I wonder if its on its way out

Paul48

@Leon82

Is your gas bill low?

Leon82

Yes but it has been a mild winter
The squeek is once every 2 or 3 seconds

kcopp

That's normal. Older meters do that.

4Johnpipe

@SanFranTH did you have any luck with the gas company? We are really wanting to know.

SanFranTH

Hi all,

We were out of town… back to the HTP Phoenix LD water heater: we still have the same problem, when the unit tries to fire up, it shuts down after three failed ignition attempts (lock out codes F01 or F82). Sometimes it does fire up, sometimes it doesn’t; it’s pretty erratic. Most of the time, it can be fired up by resetting it a couple of times.

The gas company is going to come out again either tonight or tomorrow. I will try to convince them to install a new gas regulator since this might be the cause of the problem.

To make my case, I installed a manometer at the drip leg right by the WH. I then produced a failed ignition attempt while keeping an eye on the pressure gauge. From what I can see (white scale is WC), the pressure drops from ~7” to about ~6.5” or maybe ~6.25” – please watch the attached video to see for yourself.

https://youtu.be/8m5rewmnA34

You can hear three failed ignition attempts (listen for the electrostatic spark ignition), then it shuts down with lock-out code F01.

SanFranTH

Here are some pics of the gas regulator

Is there any particular gas regulator that should be installed for negative pressure combustion chamber gas appliances? Rich mentioned a “Rockwell 750”, should I ask for that?

4Johnpipe

OMG! You absolutely can not vent the regulator like that! I know there are issues with gas meters installed inside basements. In our area the install the venting regulator outside. That is in violation of a few codes federal and the like...That flexible tubing is connected to the vent on the regulator. Sizing vent discharge pipe should only be performed by an engineer...

SanFranTH

Obviously, the gas company installed the vent for the regulator.. it's vented to the outside, just a couple of feet away. I thought they know what they are doing… Are you sure it’s wrong?

So far at least five different gas company employees looked at it, two inspectors… as well as Alan who didn’t seem to find anything wrong with it.

My real question is, if the observed pressure drop at the WH implies a problem on the gas supply side… e.g. faulty regulator?

4Johnpipe

Yes I figured that below is the language from the regulator you have...
Vent Lines for Regulators
When constructing vent lines to attach to regulators installed indoors, follow a few basic rules:
a. Never use pipe sizes smaller than the vent size; smaller pipe sizes restrict the gas flow. If a long gas run must be used, Itron advises increasing the pipe one nominal size every ten feet to keep the flow restriction as low as possible.
b. Keeptheventlinelengthasshortaspossibletominimizetherestrictionandreducethevent'stendencyto cause regulator pulsation.
c. Support the vent pipe to eliminate strain on the regulator diaphragm case.
d. Always point outdoor vent pipes in the downward position to reduce the possibility of rain, snow, sleet, and other moisture entering the pipe. Install a bug screen in the end of the pipe.
e. Do not locate the vent line terminus near windows, fans, or other ventilation equipment. See the installation instructions furnished with the regulator.
f. Adhere to all applicable codes and regulations.
g. If your vent pipe causes regulator pulsation, consult your sales representative or manufacturer.
h. Itronstronglyrecommendsrunningaseparateventlineforeachregulator.Headerswithvariousinstalled devices can cause regulator malfunction.

SanFranTH

Okay, maybe that will help to get more leverage over the gas company to install a new reg and vent

SWEI

They could have installed that with the vent port facing up and eliminated the corrugated 180° friction increaser. Vent pipe sizing is still in question.

There's also a potential venturi effect risk when the vent exit is on a building wall with prevailing winds in the right direction.

Gordy

Stack affect could play a role also.

Leon82

I would examin the electrode, i have seen a spark ignitor arc too high on the electrode and even outside of the combustion chamber thru the insulation.

BigRob

It might be a good idea to turn on all gas appliances and run the same test in the video to make sure there are no "corner-case" issues with the regulator under max gas load.

4Johnpipe

I believe Alan tested the actual inlet and outlet of the gas valve on the HTP. The 2" drop through that test is indicative of a gas supply issue. The on again off again description you observed is exactly what the regulator manufacturer describes as "regulator pulsation"....The proper function of the regulator is flawed with the vent piping arrangement that can be verified through the regulator manufacturer. That venting is absolutely prohibited in New Jersey and certainly fails to comply with the first few rules listed that I pasted right from the regulators brochure.

Gordy

Let's think about the vent, and it's function. It allows the diaphram to breath with the fluctuation in gas demand. There are not huge amounts of air entering, or leaving the vent orfice. The business side (gas side) always has the diaphram inflated so the only air Being displaced, or entering the atmospheric side is what ever movement the diaphram has in maintaining gas pressure to coincide with demand. Think diaphram in a x tank for hydronics.

When there is no demand the valve is in the off position. The diaphram is inflated by pressure on the demand side closing the valve. The second demand starts the diaphram losses pressure allowing the spring to open the valve to a degree coinciding with the demand to maintain the WC setting for the demand side which is adjustable by a screw increasing, or decreasing pressure on the spring.

So if the vent were plugged that could cause issues most likely not allowing the valve to open to a proper setting. If the vent piping were undersized it could cause issues. However we are not dealing with huge amounts of air flow.

Remember there is isolation of the gases on both sides of the diaphram unless there is a diaphram failure with the bladder, or the valve assembly through the bladder. This is why vent piping needs to be brought outdoors.

Paul48

In the video he posted, there is enough pressure to fire that thing. There was .5 - .75" WC pressure drop feeding the gas valve, and it would not fire. It attempted to fire, and if it couldn't, the problem is at the gas valve. Ignore all the other BS. Based on common sense troubleshooting..... where's the red "X" ?

tim smith

SanFran, how long is the gas pipe from meter to ph water heater. Is there any gas flex in the run going to heater. Has Alan been back since first time over there. I mentioned in post last week that the igniter needs to be pulled and checked as it may just be out of gap range or possibly something else in ignition sequence ie burner head not tight to mount plate or the like.

BigRob

Gotta be methodical; there may be multiple things going on.

Gas supply seems fine, but I would turn on all appliances and run the test in your video again just to be sure the regulator still regulates at higher gas flows. It's probably fine, but I'm conservative.

Check gas line and gas valve inlet for debris. Check install instructions for any packing items that are to be removed before operation.

Make double sure the vent is clear and there isn't a restrictive vent cap or the vent is too narrow for the length of the vent. The specs are in the instructions. In one of my buildings wind was messing with the exhaust- windy in SF. Something to keep in mind.

Check for any error codes. If none, it should be ok. Might want to ask HTP if there are any combustion sensors not monitored. Doubt it.

Check the ignition electrode. It seems to light, but could be misfiring sometimes like others suggested.

Recheck/tune the throttle/bypass/adjustments. PG&E has analyzers your people can borrow, if needed.

Take videos for documentation.

If still no good, have HTP send you a new gas valve.

My 2 cents.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I haven't been back to the job since 4/28 and have since become involved with a job similar to SanFran's. This one was with a Viessmann Vitodens boiler that wouldn't fire. Went through a similar ordeal of suspecting all the wrong things: bad regulator, water in the gas line (it was new construction; 600', two inch gas line that had been left open in the rain). The owner finally popped the flue cap and discovered sheetrock debris stuck in the exhaust. (Good call BigRob, et al.) I've shared this with SanFran.

Royboy

this is quite a saga! and to the list of things to check, I'd add to take a look into the combustion chamber to see if anything's funky in there.

I had an early Phoenix Lite that was a bit of a nightmare story for me and my client. at one juncture it was either not firing up or if it did, was a "hard start" with explosive backfire. sounded like a 22 being shot off in the mechanical/laundry room. after unfortunate amount of time trying to diagnose with assistance from distributor and HTP, HTP sent a new burner unit and motherboard (which was needed for other reasons). when I pulled out the burner I discovered that the ceramic "donut" heat shield in the combustion chamber had broken (probably due to the hard starts, but who knows) and was lying in pieces in the chamber. started up a lot nicer once that was replaced. (there were multiple issues on this unit - no idea how it left factory in such dysfunctional condition and I came nowhere near recovering my costs trying to deal with it ... but that's another story).

looking forward to hearing how this one turns out & feeling the frustration of those involved, esp the homeowner, SanFranTH.

SanFranTH

UPDATE: The gas company came out for the THIRD time yesterday. They checked everything again: gas pressure at the drip leg by the water heater; gas pressure under full load with everything firing (furnace, WH, six-burner range), they extensively examined the regulator. Everything was found to be perfectly fine, no significant pressure drop under load! They did say the venting of the regulator is a bit unusual and they will send another crew to fix that: it will be a straight shot to the outside without the twists and turns.

Here’s a quick video showing the service tech taking the gas pressure with his manometer at the WH drip leg. The first firing attempt fails, it fires up on the second attempt. Pressure drop is pretty insignificant.

https://youtu.be/uQ6dWe2JiuE

The gas technician was a nice guy, so I was able to persuade him to install a new regulator even after he showed that everything was fine. He really wanted to help me out, so he installed a new regulator.

Not too surprisingly, it didn’t make any difference: The Phoenix LD still locks out with failed ignition attempts. The firing attempts tend to be quite rough; it doesn’t sound healthy.

This Phoenix LD is a total disaster; it’s been such a nightmare. I’m ready to send this piece of junk back to where it came from.

4Johnpipe

The only way to know for sure is to re adjust everything Alan did to rule out the regulator. If it was related to the regulator the settings now are not going to work.

HeatingMaven

test

Rich_49

HeatingMaven said:

John, first time poster here, but an avid lurker. I have to ask - you and Rich have promoted and defended HTP products time after time. Can I ask if either of you have any financial connection to HTP whatsoever, e.g. promotional or consulting arrangements?

NONE WHAT SO EVER . Before starting to use HTP products several years ago we researched and found a company that recognized where many contractors were lacking and they were making products to assist those by using mass , employing different strategies and having very good customer support . We visited the factory , talked with guys who work there and use a rep agency also for best available support . HTP just went through a major growth event and knowing what I know about the folks at HTP on a level few have with manufacturers I would venture a guess that they will overcome the growing pains that I sincerely hope are what is being suffered from at present .

Remarkable thing is that the very few issues we have had with HTP products were usually the cause of something other than the product . A few loose sensors , a bad board , one unit with a water quality issue because water company did nothing with their mains after Sandy . Nothing like some of the issues we have seen talked about here . I will continue to perform the design work that I do along with the PROPER DUE DILLIGENCE and design SYSTEMS and continue to use HTP until at least I begin to see the same issues as others (doubtful) and cannot get satisfactory support ( also doubtful) . Any other insulting questions may be asked now .

Could something the original Qualified INSTALLER may have done or not done have contributed to this issue . I have seen several times where we were asked to go troubleshoot others units that things were done poorly , too long vents , exhausts too close to inside corners , gas run improperly . Truth is , we have no idea what the first guy did except for to walk out on the OP without handling the issue .

Has the OP made any inquiries to a local rep agency or to HTP for replacement of this unit ? Hell, they still replace Munchkins with bad HXs due to lack of maintenance at the stated pro rating on the warranty . I advise contacting Westinghouse and getting that ball rolling immediately .

4Johnpipe

@HeatingMaven I do not see the post only the quote in Rich's response...No I don't mind you asking...No I have nothing financially or otherwise with HTP. As Rich stated we have had the opportunity to meet some of the folks associated with HTP and are extremely impressed with what we see and have used.
We have had issues with other manufacturers and the example Rich used a page or so back was a Rinnai.
It is my experience that manufactures and myself included all have a few warts...That said the support from this product, again in my experience is second to none. I do not want to name others suffice to say we have all read the "problems" of them all on this forum.
I have witnessed responsiveness like no other manufacturer from this company. All I can do here is bring my experiences to bear. The fact that I stand behind this product is directly tied to my experiences with it verse the experiences I've had with others. I will also add that the manufacturers rep agency Emerson Swan goes above and beyond with their support, training and service.
Rich stated it well regarding growing pains. I firmly believe given my experience had this situation been a different type of purchase with a manufacturers rep or from a local wholesaler someone would have been out to the site a while ago.
I have seen time and again with many different manufacturers products a customer with a problem where the installer bowed out for whatever reason and the first thing I hear is "this piece of junk needs to be replaced". Nine times out of ten it is not the product...

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I'll go along with others who think this product is not at fault. Something is not correct with the install; not to blame the original installer. If you're an installing plumber, you're used to plug-and-play. For me at this point, I'd like to check the exhaust piping for the proper termination or perhaps debris, but I have not been asked to return to do further testing.
I would love to get closure!

4Johnpipe

Oh well...

Paul48

I asked my grandmother......she says it's the Russians.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

The owner has truly given up on the project; wants to return the unit to HTP and get something else. Like I said, I would have loved to get to the bottom of this.

BigRob

What a punch in the face

Gordy

Is it a punch in the face? I mean lets be real on the consumer end.

4Johnpipe

Wish we knew more...wide angle shot of the install. What was the installing contractors experience...I've been called in to clean up lots of messes and I may be more tenacious than most. One way or another I get to the bottom of it. Right now Im 2 weeks into a problem with a NATCO / Laars hot water boiler for a laundromat. Just received another part (for free) after getting to know tech support guys. I set a breaking point and this is the last attempt before replacing. The cost to pull and clean heat ex will put us over the preset spending limit..the tipping point.

Rich_49

Gordy ,

Could you clarify what you meant by your last comment ?

4Johnpipe

I should add nothing wrong with the product...problems are a direct result of no maintenance mostly prior to current owners...

Gordy

Rich said:

Gordy ,

Could you clarify what you meant by your last comment ?

My comment was looking at the consumer on the whole ordeal. Naturally no matter what from their point of view installer fault product fault. They only look at the fact that they had hot water, and now they don't. Doesn't matter. So in the end it's the products fault in their eyes.

tim smith

I agree with Gordy, from the consumers end all they see is no hot water over and over. A qualified tech has looked at it once, the utility has said no problem with fuel supply. So naturally they felt they got a lemon. Now if Alan did not have time to verify a few things, it is too bad that they have not had him back but I totally understand there consensus.