HELP: HTP Phoenix Light Duty doesn’t fire up

hot_rod

If a product like this is intended to be a direct to homeowner sale, via the internet, tech support and troubleshooting will get complicated
If it is sold as part of a radiant package also, who is responsible for support?

Paul48

I agree, that is what is happening. I don't agree that it is. It would have been cheaper, and better for HTP to drop-ship a new unit to the customer. How many folks will look at this posting and not buy an HTP product because of it? Remember, the folks that have the bad experiences write reviews. And, right or wrong, that's what potential customers see. If you won't jump through hoops, your competition will. I know guys say they have very good service and tech support from them. It has to be across the board . If you destroy your company image, you're screwed.

JUGHNE

For over 35 years I have noticed when "good" stand alone brand name products made their way into the big box store they got into the race to the bottom. Brands that were usually only available thru the contractor, such as Moen....AquaGlas...ISE....Square D etc.....even AO Smith was considered a solid plumber only item.

I'm hoping HTP isn't heading that way as I am hoping to install some Phoenix WH's rather than AO Smith things that seem to have really headed south. "So, say it ain't so HTP Joe"

Note: Just google Munchken and check a lot of bad reviews....The few I am aware of are working fine. But the squeaky wheel gets the attention.

hot_rod

Paul48 said:

I agree, that is what is happening. I don't agree that it is. It would have been cheaper, and better for HTP to drop-ship a new unit to the customer. How many folks will look at this posting and not buy an HTP product because of it? Remember, the folks that have the bad experiences write reviews. And, right or wrong, that's what potential customers see. If you won't jump through hoops, your competition will. I know guys say they have very good service and tech support from them. It has to be across the board . If you destroy your company image, you're screwed.

But the HTP and Westinghouse connections are complicating this issue. I'm not sure the buyer knew of, or connection to HTP.
My experiences with HTP have all been positive, and their pioneering in mod con are well known and appreciated.
Regardless of how a product is distributed, an appliance with fire, water, pressure and combustion needs a trained pro involved, in my mind.

Paul48

Which model of car are you talking about?

Paul48

At a point, I agree with you. But there are always going to be those that want to do the job themselves. That's a different issue entirely. If you make it, you stand behind it, or suffer the consequences.

4Johnpipe

We definitely do not have enough of the story to conclude much except this. The OP found what was advertised as a superior product online. This was only available through WH online in their location. The next step was the installing contractor. I know some that regardless of making a buck would back away of they had no experience or even basic tools to properly install and set up a piece of modern mod con equipment. I am curious as to how that part of the equation went. My gut is telling me gas delivery...unfortunately Allan had set everything before that was rectified now with a new regulator and they gas company is changing the vent piping. I am positive the unit needs to be re adjusted now that that the gas work has been done. I suppose we will never know...

BigRob

BigRob said:

What a punch in the face

I meant to say, I've been in the HO's situation before and it feels like a punch in the face - not placing any blame.

BigRob

4Johnpipe said:

We definitely do not have enough of the story to conclude much except this. The OP found what was advertised as a superior product online. This was only available through WH online in their location. The next step was the installing contractor. I know some that regardless of making a buck would back away of they had no experience or even basic tools to properly install and set up a piece of modern mod con equipment. I am curious as to how that part of the equation went. My gut is telling me gas delivery...unfortunately Allan had set everything before that was rectified now with a new regulator and they gas company is changing the vent piping. I am positive the unit needs to be re adjusted now that that the gas work has been done. I suppose we will never know...

What's neat about this forum is everyone takes their craft seriously, which is really great to see these days. Where else can you go and get great advice like this? The problem was very close to being solved - pretty sure about that. It always goes like that- problem 90% solved, then dissatisfied HO. I agree that HTP should have swapped the unit and had the local rep white glove the install, especially during this critical "brand building" stage.

Paul48

I think sometimes manufacturers get stuck on "we're not wrong", and lose sight of the big picture. With the write-off, it would cost them pennies. The PR and marketing opportunity was worth tens of thousands.

Gordy

Folks you have to look at this from a consumer perspective. Yes you do. If you bought a corvette that failed to start in a similar fashion as the PLD. What would you do.......be pissed no? At whom? The mechanic? The manufacturer?

4Johnpipe

@Gordy Interesting analogy...Yes I would be pissed...I would bring it back and make sure I got it fixed or another corvette not a Yugo...

L Thiesen

From a consumer's viewpoint this thread and others like it are very discourageing. If the experts can not make these products work what are the odds any one in my area can? Now I know many of you will say it was something the installer did wrong but if the modern high efficenty units are so finicky what will the constant maintanence costs be and will there ever be any savings? I think I will keep my cast iron standing pilot boiler for as long as possible. Sorry about the spelling.

4Johnpipe

This is precisely the view point we try not to present. It's not that the new units are finicky as much as in the industry certain utilities are expected to be at a certain standard. It is clearly obvious (at least to those that have diagnosed anything) that the gas utility install was not to this standard. It was not even up to the manufacturer of the regulators standard. This is a problem nation wide.
I have learned a great deal by diagnosing my own installs with new products. Before such products became readily available. The basics are the same across the board. I would like to understand how the ordinal installing contractor would install a product without much knowledge of it and walk away when it doesn't work. I've seen basically 3 types of contractors. One the know it all and therefore see no need to learn anything new. Two they just don't care to learn anything new. Finally three they never stop learning. I fall into category 3 and do my best to guide my employees down that same road....

Paul48

I rest my case. How much did this post alone cost HTP? We've watched the way some manufacturers that frequent here, deal with problems. They don't make the contractor, or homeowner, jump through hoops. They'll have them try a couple things, then apologize for their trouble, and send them a replacement. It gets to a point where, even if the product was repaired, the damage is done. The offended customer "badmouths" the manufacturer to ten people, who each "badmouth" them to 10 more. Well...you get the picture.
John......I think if you ask the OP........this is an HTP product. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck......wellllll....maybe it doesn't quack.

Rich_49

Another way to look at this post Paul is this , Maybe a potential customer or one researching various manufacturers will understand the importance of purchasing products and vetting contractors properly instead of being all consumed by the bottom line and having a piss poor experience much as this man has . I might also add that HTP received a couple calls about this unit From Alan , and heard nothing further after it was shown how the regulator was improper according to the regulator manufacturers own specs . Maybe they will have taken these things from this post . As a footnote , I'd be willing to bet that HTP honors the warranty and if given the chance by a customer would have sent someone from the Reps office to check out the install . They never had that chance as 3-4 calls do not qualify as a proper effort .

My takeaways and some for future readers .


Don't buy things on the internet in an effort to pay less . This man paid over 1,000.00 too much if we are to take into account the links he referenced for us .

He used the term qualified for the installer whom certainly was not . How do we know this ? Because he had no clue even what combustion analysis is and he did not RTFM . Everything he needed was in there including the need to perform combustion analysis .

Never take for granted that the gas companies stuff is in proper working order or was installed properly , they are human beings also . They are also employees of a huge company that likes to keep most of it's earnings , If it aint broke don't fix it , or everything else works even if I don't understand that it has different needs from everything else in the house .

At the end of the day Westinghouse or HTP will make an amicable arrangement and this consumer will get whatever unit he wants . Hopeful;ly he will get something simple that an idiot can install and he and his family won't blow up

I must beleive this is the case because I know of cases where HTP has sent individuals not known specifically to them several different control boards to vary how one of their units operates in an attempt to assist this individual while also gathering knowledge about that specific system and how that unit operates in different types of systems . It's all in the way you handle things and how your expectations will determine what type of experience you have .

Please , if someone can tell me what manufacturer has never had a bad one see the light of day , I'd be interested to hear and disprove that story ..

Rich_49

So these are the folks whose opinion you may choose to accept . At your own peril . Not even fatalities and explosions can make these folks do the right thing , you think they give a damn about a faulty regulator or improperly vented regulator , I think not . They di not learn anyhting by being fined 38 million in 09 , let's see if they can learn from a 1.4 billion fine in 2014 due to a 2010 explosion .

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/09/02/pge-fined-1-4-billion-for-violations-leading-to-2010-san-bruno-pipeline-explosion/

L Thiesen

I am not defending utilitys or the way they operate but these fines will just be added to the cost of doing business and then they ask for a rate increase.

Gordy

When a consumer buys a high tech product that they think will save them money, and conserve energy. Yet it can't perform on the same gas supply infrastructure that everything else in the home is, and was using. Its hard to get past that. That is fact. Sadly we will never know if the regulator, or venting was the issue....

It's hard to build confidence in a consumer like that.

BigRob

Rich said:

So these are the folks whose opinion you may choose to accept . At your own peril . Not even fatalities and explosions can make these folks do the right thing , you think they give a damn about a faulty regulator or improperly vented regulator , I think not . They di not learn anyhting by being fined 38 million in 09 , let's see if they can learn from a 1.4 billion fine in 2014 due to a 2010 explosion .

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/09/02/pge-fined-1-4-billion-for-violations-leading-to-2010-san-bruno-pipeline-explosion/

Last I heard PGE was trying to pass all or part of the fine explicitly to consumers. Even if denied, it will be passed on in some form and we all lose, but the tax man has another 1.4 billion to play with. Privatizing utilities has been a huge disaster for California.

BobC

Every time a utility gets privatized a few folks get rich while everybody else pays for them to get rich - it is never in the public.s best interest to privatize a utility.

Same thing goes for banks. I remember when they wanted to privatize a local credit union, they went on and on about how wonderful it would be for the account holders. It turns out the folks at the top were going to make a killing and sell the depositors down the river.

Bob

SWEI

ISTR some kind of requirement that the fine be paid by the equity holders and not the ratepayers on that one?

Gordy

SWEI said:

ISTR some kind of requirement that the fine be paid by the equity holders and not the ratepayers on that one?

Yes directly. However down the road slowly, but surely.........

SWEI

Gram by gram, the pound of flesh will be extracted.

BigRob

BobC said:

Every time a utility gets privatized a few folks get rich while everybody else pays for them to get rich - it is never in the public.s best interest to privatize a utility.

Same thing goes for banks. I remember when they wanted to privatize a local credit union, they went on and on about how wonderful it would be for the account holders. It turns out the folks at the top were going to make a killing and sell the depositors down the river.

Bob

Funny you don't hear the Reps or Dems talking about the 1999 Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (GLBA), but Clinton (Bill) does. LOL.

I agree all utilities should be public - lesser of two evils. Time to nuke the energy problem, too. Actually, you hydronics guys might like this:

http://energyfromthorium.com/

BobC

@BigRob The pressurized water reactors were just supposed to be a stepping stone, they are too complex and have serious safety problems. A liquid fueled Thorium reactor is a lot simpler and a lot cheaper, we should never have closed that research down like Nixon did.

Bob

PlumbrUSA

I realize that this is an older thread but I recently found it and read it again and felt it was my duty to the industry to share my experiences with the HTP Light Duty Phoenix.

I am a contractor in the Bay Area ( Northern California) and first began installing these heaters 3-4 years ago. I really liked the way that they work and they have a small footprint and are super efficient and quiet. I installed approximately 10 units of various sizes in both residential and light duty applications. I just had to replace another one last week after only three years. This leaves me with only 2 or three still in service and one of them is now having to be reset daily.

I am experiencing what appears to be a near 100% failure rate on these units. The error codes that first appear are the same as discussed on this thread. I first talked to rep agency... (JTG Muir), factory, and the HTP Guru Allan who is mentioned. I paid him for a service call. I even bought the very expensive combustion analyzer and learned to use it. AND needs to be calibrated annually.

What did we eventually discover ? The cause of the improper combustion is because the burner is getting wet. All of these symptoms eventually end with a failure to light and is easily proven by a physical inspection of combustion chamber. The unit can be reset for a period of time until the leak gets bad enough to not light at all.

This is very much the same experience we had with the Grandhall/Eternal units that everyone was so in love with. They were also manufactured and welded in South Korea I understand. Eternal eventually quit taking phone calls and went out of business.

In the interest of full disclosure we do have Hard water in my area (20 gpg +/-) but most were installed with water softeners feeding them. I paid for a water test from a lab to prove water was not aggressive.

Bottom line ? In my humble opinion... 316 L stainless may not be the best choice for a water heater tank. Sounds good in theory, but 3-5 year longevity is unacceptable.

We typically get 12-15 years from a regular tank water heater. We are now using steel tank models if high efficiency models are needed, such as Bradford White EF series.

So far, so good

Henry

This a perfect example why we do NOT install consumer bought online gas products or DYI radiant. It ends up bad mouthing reputable companies by having incompetent installers installing.