HELP: HTP Phoenix Light Duty doesn’t fire up

SanFranTH

We are homeowners in San Francisco and just had a residential HTP Phoenix Light Duty (76,000 BTU) water heater (60 gallon) installed by a professional plumber. The WH was purchased over the internet by us and shipped directly from the HTP factory to our house (it’s branded as Westinghouse).

Unfortunately, the unit doesn’t fire up. You can hear the spark ignitor attempting to light the gas, but there is no flame, the system displays an error code (mostly it’s this code: F01 – the control senses no flame after three ignition attempts; much less often: F82 – the control detects an unstable flame). Once or twice we saw a flame for a very short time (<1-2 seconds) through the little peephole.

Although our plumber hasn’t installed a Phoenix LD before, we believe the install was done correctly. Our gas company came out and confirmed that the install looks good; they also checked the pressure of the gas line (3/4”) at the water heater: it was good and stable (6.5 WC).

We called HTP to figure out what was going on; they told us to fix the problem, they needed to talk to a qualified gas technician on site with a combustion analyzer and a manifold to adjust the gas valve/throttle. Our plumber doesn’t have that kind of equipment. HTP was not able to give any recommendation for a product specialist who could fix this.

At this point we are incredibly frustrated: no hot water for a family of five since over a week and many thousand dollars spent… and no solution in sight. A professional plumber should be able to install this unit – that’s how it’s marketed. This unit should work as advertised without having to call in a specialized gas technician with a combustion analyzer.

Any recommendations on how to find a qualified service technician (equipped with combustion analyzer)? It should be somebody who has experience with these systems.

Also, any ideas what could be the problem?

hot_rod

HTP is a common brand in that area, JT Muir is the local rep. Alan Forbes hangs out here, he is your guy or could refer someone close by, 510 559 3575.

The unit will need to light up and run to have a combustion analyzer do much good

jonny88

Sorry but you bought the product online and are now blaming it because your installer doesnt have a combustion analyzer.You are not looking for a specialist if your installer doesn't own the proper install tools he should get them they are mandatory when installing boilers.HTP in my encounters with them have been extremely helpful when needed.Plumbing and heating are two different beasts.If I were you I would take the advice of Hotrod.

SanFranTH

Thanks, hot rod! I've contacted Alan Forbes, he's coming out to our house on Wednesday.

Hi Jonny88, I checked the brochure and installation manual again: My understanding is that a professional plumber without special HTP training should be able to install this unit correctly. Maybe I was wrong? Granted, our plumber is mainly a plumber and not so much a technician. Still, I think the install was done correctly; we just got a faulty unit.

The unit was purchased at an online supply house because our plumber's local supply house did not carry this unit and there was no other way for us to source it.

JUGHNE

Was the air bled out of the gas line? I know gas co said pressure was good. That was at no load and was it gas or air.

You almost can't fix it until you make it work....chicken/egg .

Leon82

Is it safe to assume your plumber left you hanging with no hot water?

There is usually a paint stripe on the adjustment screws,if they are not intact he may have tried to adjust it and now its so far off it won't light now that the gas has reached the gas valve.

Rich_49

SanFranTH said:

Thanks, hot rod! I've contacted Alan Forbes, he's coming out to our house on Wednesday.

Hi Jonny88, I checked the brochure and installation manual again: My understanding is that a professional plumber without special HTP training should be able to install this unit correctly. Maybe I was wrong? Granted, our plumber is mainly a plumber and not so much a technician. Still, I think the install was done correctly; we just got a faulty unit.

The unit was purchased at an online supply house because our plumber's local supply house did not carry this unit and there was no other way for us to source it.

You are correct in assuming that a water heater should be able to be installed by a licensed plumber . No HTP specialized training is required ti install HTP products either . What is needed however is a working knowledge of modern equipment and the wherewithall to have the right tools . Combustion Analysis equipment is no longer specialized equipment but necessary equipment . Don't blame your plumber though , fact is , 90%+ of professionals performing many tasks nowadays are ill prepared for the task . Don't blame HTP either , they make top notch equipment . Alan will likely straighten you right out and tell you exactly what happened . Rest assured that if you received a faulty unit , HTP will expedite a remedy .

As Hot Rod stated , the Bay area is no stranger to HTP and the fact that he was not able to locate the item locally is suspect of his ability or willingness to install what you wanted . Modern things sometimes intimidate .

hot_rod

As Hot Rod stated , the Bay area is no stranger to HTP and the fact that he was not able to locate the item locally is suspect of his ability or willingness to install what you wanted . Modern things sometimes intimidate .


There may be some confusion for awhile regarding Westinghouse and HTP.

Does HTP support the Westinghouse products? I see Westinghouse has their own website with tech support numbers, etc.

If Westinghouse is sold customer direct, do HTP reps get involved with commission, or are they required to support it?

Or does the Westinghouse brand flow through wholesale distribution also?

Rich_49

Very good question s Bob . Maybe someone in the know could help us all understand .

I can say that I purchase HTP through local channels and ES reps and the support is better than anything I've ever received from any Manufacturer / rep . Product is also head and shoulders above lots of other stuff .

Leon82

When Bosch sold tank less heaters at home depot as aquastar the were the same as the commercial models but you got less warranty and different customer support.

I bet the customer support numbers are different.

hot_rod

Leon82 said:

When Bosch sold tank less heaters at home depot as aquastar the were the same as the commercial models but you got less warranty and different customer support.



I bet the customer support numbers are different.

Same street address as HTP on the Westinghouse site. When you quiz their live chat it asks you to leave a message.

SanFranTH

Hi all, thanks for chiming in.

Interestingly, the Westinghouse manual (which is 100% identical to the HTP Phoenix LD manual) didn't have a tech support number. So I called the HTP tech support and told them that's a Westinghouse unit - the service rep said it absolutely doesn't matter since it's the exact same thing. He was willing to help, but quickly said it's pointless since I'm just the homeowner; in fact he didn't even want to talk to my plumber when he heard that he was lacking equipment. ;-)

I will report back after Alan Forbes has looked at the water heater.

JUGHNE

It sounds like you will get fixed up.
After that many tries the air should have been out of the gas line by now.
A wild guess is improper grounding which would make your flame sensor act up.

Alan might also answer your questions of using the auxiliary taps for some space heating that you referred to in your other post.

Please let us know the outcome. I hope to use the 2 of the commercial versions for a hot water project in the future and would appreciate the feedback. Especially with tech support.

I guess I better get the new O2 sensor for the Testo

Leon82

That's good news.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Hey, guys. I'll be going over to The City tomorrow to check out TH's Phoenix, be it HTP or Westinghouse.

My guess is that the combustion mix is whacked. On Munchkins, I bottom out the mix adjusting screw and then back it out 13 turns to get it in the ballpark, enough to light off and then fine tune it with my analyzer; maybe Phoenix is the same.

TH should be happy to hear that I'm motivated to fix the problem in short order. My favorite dim sum restaurant is not far away.

BobC

"Often wrong, never in doubt"

Interesting that you learn so much more from mistakes than you do from doing things right. As old as I am I still mange to make mistakes but I try to not repeat any old mistakes; it's much more interesting to find new mistakes..

Bob

hot_rod

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

Hey, guys. I'll be going over to The City tomorrow to check out TH's Phoenix, be it HTP or Westinghouse.

My guess is that the combustion mix is whacked. On Munchkins, I bottom out the mix adjusting screw and then back it out 13 turns to get it in the ballpark, enough to light off and then fine tune it with my analyzer; maybe Phoenix is the same.

TH should be happy to hear that I'm motivated to fix the problem in short order. My favorite dim sum restaurant is not far away.

Nice of you to step up and help out. Lunch should be on Westing-horse:)

4Johnpipe

Perhaps the installing contractor can meet you there Alan? It could turn out to be a good thing to give a quick onsite lesson. Education is good stuff!!!

SWEI

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

My favorite dim sum restaurant is not far away.

Ton Kiang?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

You're psychic, Herr Albershardt!!

Thanks for the referral, Hot Rod!!

SanFranTH

Hi all,

Unfortunately, the Phoenix LD water heater is still not up and running… despite Alan’s efforts this morning. I’m confident in his abilities, but I’m not sure if I can say the same of the HTP tech support. They made a number of suggestions that simply didn’t fix the problem (e.g. replacing the gas line at the WH which was a corrugated stainless steel flex pipe with a rigid metal pipe)… My understanding is that somehow Alan observed a 2” WC drop right at the WH gas valve port. HTP tech support proceeded to blame the problem on the gas company and a faulty gas regulator. That seemed odd, because the gas company came out the day before and checked the regulator as well as the pressure at the water heater – which was all good and stable.

Nevertheless, based on Alan’s recommendation, I had the gas company come out again today to replace the gas regulator. They spent an hour testing the pressure everywhere and could not find the slightest issue. Gas pressure was a stable 7” WC at the WH. They also did a load test firing up our furnace (90.000 BTU): the pressure dropped slightly to 6.5” WC. Based on their findings they refused to replace the gas regulator. Also, all other gas appliances in the house work totally normal (six-burner gas stove and furnace). They gave me an official report stating that everything is fine on their end.

At this point I’m pretty sure HTP sent us a faulty product. Alan is coming back tomorrow morning to give it one more try. If we can’t get it to work, I will personally drive this high-tech water heater to the dump and have a $700 old-school Rheem installed instead. I’ll be out $6,000 but at least we have hot water.

4Johnpipe

I had a similar problem with a Rinnai about 2 years ago. large drop at the gas valve but 7" static gas pressure and minor drop with all other appliances running. I had to beg them to change the gas regulator at the meter. They did after I spoke to the right person. negative pressure combustion chambers draw a lot of velocity and a faulty regulator will not tolerate that. Most furnaces are not of this type. I have not heard a peep since the regulator was changed.
PS I have installed and still install quite a few HTP Phoenix LD and have not encountered this condition.
Like @Hatterasguy said it is under warranty...

hot_rod

Do the units get test fired at the factory? I seem to remember seeing the early Munchkins get test fired on the line.

JUGHNE

As 4John said negative pressure gas valves are a different animal.
Your new HTP water heater literally sucks the gas out of the pipe, that is the way it functions, it can confuse NG regulators.

Your furnace and range top are positive pressure users. When their valves open your NG co regulator opens to let more gas into the line to feed the fire. That reg may open slower than it should but for those appliances it does't matter.
But when the negative pressure valve opens and it has its fan pulling gas out of the line, the outside gas co reg will not open and function as needed.

IMO the gas company needs to measure the pressure while your WH is trying to fire. It is possible your inside piping is at fault. But Alan would have ruled that out already.

Rich_49

Every single unit , whatever type we have installed still had moisture in it . It is confirmed that all Phoenix products are test fired before leaving .

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Long story, short..................I removed the gas flex that tech. support was saying created too much turbulence in the gas; also removed a gas earthquake valve at the meter that we have had issues with before and the problem still persisted. I called HTP again and the same tech. said that the regulator at the meter was the problem. As TH has already explained, the gas company tech. refused to replace the regulator since he thought everything was fine. I asked the HTP tech. if it could be a gas mix problem and he said no; don't mess with it.
When I got back to the shop, I called HTP again and got a tech. named Alex who asked me why I hadn't adjusted the gas mix. Grrrr. I returned this morning and the first thing I did was to pull the corrugated hose off the air intake and for the first time in three weeks, the unit fired and stayed lit. For some reason, the unit didn't want to fire even though we checked the combustion air piping and everything was fine; it was only 10 feet long with no obstructions.
After that, we did a combustion analysis and dialed in the numbers, but the unit was starting very roughly. Finally, Alex at HTP had me adjust the offset behind the torx 30 cap, something they tell you not to touch and which I'd never had to do. Alex and I spent some time dialing it in and finally, finally got it to light off smoothly.
And then the condensate started to leak out of condensate marble chip box that HTP installs under the first exhaust 90° bend coming out of the unit. We found that the sealing gasket and screw had never been installed.
It is always a process to get to the root of the problem; sometimes it's quick and easy and sometimes it's long and hard. Thanks to Alex at HTP!

SanFranTH

Thanks Alan for straighten this out – it was very tricky!

Needless to say that I am hugely disappointed with HTP: Is there any quality control at the factory? Apparently not; they sent us a unit with not only one defect, but two: faulty combustion mix & leaking condensate trap! Moreover, tech support initially firmly blamed the problems on the gas company and a faulty regulator. I can only hope HTP will come through and compensate me for Alan’s efforts. It’s been quite an ordeal and took two days to fix!

Frankly, I’m not very optimistic about the life expectancy of this water heater. It was so carelessly assembled that I’m expecting more problems in the future. I have Alan’s number on speed dial.

PS: There is no way they test fired this at the factory! Another false claim by HTP

Leon82

I guess the question is did these adjustment just counteract the regulator or were the set wrong from the factory.

4Johnpipe

I have just been made aware of a potential problem. I'm checking into the validity of the information. Westinghouse is treated as a separate company and may I stress may have their own final assembly and quality control on the products branded as such. I'm not done digging into this...I have experienced some issues with every single manufacturer for production line products. This is no secret in the industry as a whole. We have a long way to go for perfection and perhaps that may only be a direction and not a destination. I am however not happy when we read problems on a site like this. I would offer that for each problem I remain confident that there are double the amount of good stories.
I do hope that some compensation is available to rectify what at first blush seems to be a product issue....

NY_Rob

Possibly the "HTP Phoenix Light Duty" is like their UFT line of boilers in that HTP doesn't actually "make" them.
The HTP UFT series is made in Korea by Kiturami then "finished" (whatever that means) here by HTP and others.
You can find the Kiturami Homsys being sold here as the HTP UFT, Westinghouse, Noritz, and LAARS brand names- probably all "finished" by the individual branding corps.

Rich_49

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NY_Rob said:

Possibly the "HTP Phoenix Light Duty" is like their UFT line of boilers in that HTP doesn't actually "make" them.
The HTP UFT series is made in Korea by Kiturami then "finished" (whatever that means) here by HTP and others.
You can find the Kiturami Homsys being sold here as the HTP UFT, Westinghouse, Noritz, and LAARS brand names- probably all "finished" by the individual branding corps.

The UFT is in fact built by Kiturami , as well as the EFTC , and a couple others . You can thank the fact that it cannot be done here for the cost for that . No one should blame Mr Davis for trying to make a better product to compete on a price point basis with the garbage that has proven to be a problem and keeping American money , as worthless as it is here . They is finished by HTP in Mass and does receive something there that I cannot speak to about the others . Quite possible also that the Westinghouse stuff is finished by them and not tested as those that are branded HTP . I personally do not use nor do I recommend purchase of anything other than HTP branded stuff .
Is it possible that HTP also will become pissed off as well as possibly their Reps and loyal users ? Possibly .

Is it possible for a QC issue to be found out in the field ? Yes

Is it possible that this issue is appearing for the very first time ? Yes . Is it also possible that Tech support will note it and adjust their response to include checking that in the future ? Yes and probably .

Is it possible that this issue will show up in Warmboard's Warmsource ? Doubt it , the WB people are probably more than happy with the HTP product and if it is distributed to them in the same manner as it gets to Westinghouse they should take great care to protect their name .

Did this OP try to save money by utilizing the internet and hiring the lowest cost installer ? Probably .

Should the unit have had any issues ? NO

Will I continue to use HTP products because they are quality and the Tech support services are bar none better than anyone else ? Bet your **** .

Do I hope someone from HTP like Dave Davis , Dave Martin , Jason Alpert look into how this may affect their brand ? I hope so because when the name suffers from stuff like this I and others will no longer be able to easily sell , install , support the brand .

It is my opinion that this consumer is entitled to some sort of compensation .

To the OP , read my bottom tag line and next time , use your local supplier , rep and a guy like Alan . They may cost a bit more but they are worth it .

Sorry you had an issue .

Rich_49

Hatterasguy said:

Most companies don't "make" most of their parts anymore. Nothing wrong with that.

Just step up and take responsibility for the final product. Test it properly and provide someone with a brain when a contractor calls for assistance regarding it and stock some spare parts for it at your reps.

Is that too much to ask?

I have in the past been the first to identify problems and issues with certain parts from many manufacturers . It happens and that's how tech support documents / manuals get built .
We do not know for sure that these units are finished in the Mass. facilities in East Freetown or New Bedford . Maybe Westinghouse units should be referred to as such until this knowledge becomes known .

NY_Rob

When you google the Customer Support 774-417-6000 phone number listed in the Westinghouse UFT install manual it traces back to:
Westinghouse Water Heating
272 Duchaine Boulevard
New Bedford, MA 02745

Same address as HTP Products....
HTP, Inc.
272 Duchaine Boulevard
New Bedford, MA 02745

For S&G I called the Westinghouse support phone number above... "Peter" said it's support for both Westinghouse and HTP Products.

SanFranTH

Update: This morning my wife took a shower and when the Phoenix LD tried to fire up to raise the temperature - it shut down again! The burners don't ignite, there is no flame and it errors out!

Sorry, but this HTP Phoenix Light Duty/Westinghouse is a piece of junk. I think you all agree that Alan is a competent service technician; he has 15 years experience with HTP products. He was on the phone with HTP tech support for 2 days, he has all the necessary equipment like manometer/combustion analyzer etc. There is no issue on the gas supply side - this was confirmed twice by the gas company!

Btw, the unit was built by HTP in their East Freetown Mass. facility - there's a sticker on the water heater saying just that. Also, it doesn't make sense that they have lower quality standards for Westinghouse, it's the same price as the HTP-labeled product, just check the Amazon or Home Depot web-site. The tech service rep also said it's identical and clearly the Westinghouse unit is supported by the official HTP tech service; Alan was on the phone with them for two days!

I'm done with this garbage high-tech water heater, I'm getting an old-school Rheem installed for a fraction what I have paid so far. We have two babies and no hot water for weeks!

Rich_49

It is quite frustrating for you , I understand . There are a whole lot of these units out there , installed and operating very well .

Again , you have to watch the internet .
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters/Westinghouse/N-5yc1vZbqlyZ1m6

http://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-WGR060NG076-97-Percent-High-Efficiency-Natural/dp/B00OY11L90

We pay much less for our LDs and have yet to have a problem . We also enjoy rep agency support . There would be someone there right now , they would take care of the problem , you'd receive a new unit and all would be good . That is not possible though because the internet is so convenient and real qualified plumbers are far too expensive . Guessing by the outlets you posted and what you stated you paid in a previous post , you did get had . That , however is no fault of HTP , as we all know , occasionally a bad unit slips through for a variety of reasons . Don't you worry though , that old convenient internet will surely provide directions on how you can receieve your refund after returning the unit through the appropriate internet outlet protocol .

Had you chosen to stimulate your local economy and use a wholesale outlet and qualified plumber you would have had hot water 4-6 days ago more than likely . Sometimes , most times , inexpensive and convenient will bite you in the butt .

Contact HTP and see if there is anything they can do to make this process easier for you for your trouble .

4Johnpipe

Unless the gas valve was damaged in shipping or a flat out catastrophic failure the last post by the OP sounds eerily like a faulty gas supply regulator. Unfortunately it seems replacing that $100.00 part by the local gas supplier is not in the cards...
I feel your pain...

SanFranTH

Gas company will not replace the regulator. They came out twice and measured a static 7" WC at the water heater. They even gave me two official service reports saying that everything is fine on their end.

But I will try to get them out again...

My wife is about to move in a hotel with the kids and file for divorce..

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I think 4John and Leon82 have hit the nail on the head. It's a problem with the regulator and other than the leaking condensate trap, the HTP unit would have fired from the get-go. From the start, I was getting weird manometer readings. Seven inch WC before start-up. As soon as the fan started, the pressure would increase to 10.8" WC and then drop to 8.8" WC when it tried to ignite.
I've asked TH to call the utility company and explain that a negative pressure gas valve is a different animal (tip of the hat to 4John and JUGHNE) and to ask nicely for a replacement regulator. If they say no, ask to speak to a supervisor and demand a replacement.

4Johnpipe

I really hope it is the regulator...also hope they replace it not just adjust it up! Just read a white paper on the longevity and durability of gas regulators. Seems end of useful life is 15 years depending on location.
This would be a great example of the power of the Internet. The ability to share experiences enlarges our collective wisdom...
Keeping fingers crossed on the east coast!

tim smith

Alan and all, this is eerily familiar to when one of my favorite fire tube boiler co. Sent me a boiler for my house. I fought like mad trying to get it to fire, I btw have worked on hundreds of these and we repair all makes of condensing boilers and water heaters regularly with all proper instruments. Come to find out at factory the fire off tech left the propane orifice washer in it and adjusted to where it fired supposedly. I spent several hrs off and on with tech until we just could not get it to fire smoothly. Decided to yank gas valve And burner and found the orivice for propane in there . Unbelievable that they really ever fired it. What a pita. I feel your pain and wish I could help Sanfran.

tim smith

Alan, how was manifold pressure after you got it to fire, was co2 in line? I wonder if something might have got lodged in comb air or vent pipe.