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Ultra Piping problem, HELP!
Comments
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Grundfoss
Kal, Will it at least supply 25 GPM flow with at least a 3 1/2 head?0 -
Grundfoss Circ Sizing
Kal,
Dan H. had an article in the Heating Help.com newsletter about circulator sizing.
Please read this http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=125
I'm suspecting that since my Ultra is a 155, that I need a 25 GPM pump with at least 3 1/2 headpressure. Is that the way you see it? Is the Grundfoss you suggested capable of this?0 -
i think
> No, I'll be relying on my HVAC Professional......
> However, did you have any suggestions?
that you have to disconnect on top where
the the copper attaches to the iron pipe0 -
HVAC Professional......
you, "have" one of those????
- wow - according to dan - they are all dead men.. - oh, i kill me...
i think that you have to disconnect on top where the the copper attaches to the iron pipe, just flush out the new stuff with plain water, but the house pipes, need a full descaling treatment, with an external pump and filter and i believe they use phophoric-acid - there are companies that specialize in doing this - i personally dont mess with methusala's pipes0 -
Now, Now Kal
Kal, Kal, Kal, I say that becuase I have respect for those (like you and Floyd) who are doing your best for your customer. I beleive that my guy is a HVAC professional also. There might be some disagreement about what the proper way is, but he has agreed to correct what I perceive as a problem (not being piped like the book). He has always returned my calls, and he seems to be interested in me, the consumer. So, did you have time to read the other post I addressed to you about the sizing of the circulator, Die Grundfoss dinga, dass Sie zu mir beschrieben hatten.0 -
if the requrement is indded
Indeed for 25gpm and 3.5ft then you need a Grundfos UP26-64
Attached is the curve for it, - it has a pretty linear curve which is good, since if you actually have more resistance in the pipes than predicted, then they are probably smaller than average, and the water will flow at les gpm but faster in the pipe which is what we want if we dont have the much water the 25 gpm, is to move the large volume of water at the same ft per sec in huge pipe as 12 gpm would move it in smaller pipe, so that the linear velocity of the water is roughly the same all this takes careful plodding though the charts for heat transfer, per volume and per velocity
http://www.grundfos.com/web/HOMEus.NSF - complicated site to navigate, you need to set up your profile for English units etc
i read dan's article - you still need to do a complete heat load on the building (get the software from slant-fin) so you get the btus for each section of the building were a radiator is, to see if you have enough and what temp they need to be at ,
and like he said, total the radiation, and then we take a best guess on the balance of the two and yes its not a perfect science we oversize sorry thats why I like the tekmars like 361, its got a sensor on the boilers loop, a sensor on the system loop, and outdoor sensor, then runs the boiler as needed and varies the speed of an injection pump to match supply to load its smarter than me and the books
so let the ultra do its thing for this you had it going pretty good for a while dont even think of doing anything until this winter is all but done if it works dont break it, you can flush it and re-pipe it later
you need to go with the Grundfos - even on the boiler's loop, since the old pipe's, even without fresh oxygen, are going to keep generating scale, and the taco's dont have the same starting torque as the Grundfoss do, you might even need good old fashioned B&G 3 piece pumps - what I always use for open basement loops, off steam boilers, because they generate scale like crazy, a taco 007 gets one season in that env, and its over.0 -
ish haben fa-ant-vort ze o-der post
and i was just kidding - gavity conversions make for a lot of greif - "vat to do - mit all zat vataerr" - i feel sorry for your guy0 -
HVAC Novice Makes Startling Discovery
Some of you may have received the long version, but here is the question:
How will the cycle rate setting on my thermostat affect my hot water boiler heat with CI Baseboard rads? Does it make a difference?
It was set for gas/oil forced air furnace and I just changed it to hot water.
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shame on me
shame on me for not asking you more particulars about your system, and the thermostat, you could have had an old thermostat, with the anticipator set completely wrong, (an "anticipator", anticipates the heat already generated by the heating system that hasn't reached the tstat, by running a little heating element inside, set for the milliamperes for the heating control circuit) - the Honeywell CT-3600 is different, it needs to be set to your particular heating "system" response time, which is based on both the heat-source (boiler), and the radiation (ci-baseboard in your case) and the latency of the gallons and gallons and gallons of water in you old gravity system -
(fyi - tekmar controls and tstats - with a few hints - figure it all out) - you may want to look at a tekmar tstat with remote sensor http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/u510.pdf
as for you piping question, if you zone, off your supply header, to a common return - it's hard to get it balanced right- unless you are using variable speed pumps per zone or a B&G "circuit setter" (a press adjusting flow controller), you would really need to pipe for "reverse return", ie the radiator furthest from the boiler, on the supply line, would have to be closest to the boiler, on the return, though with those large gravity pipes, the "non reverse returns" imbalance effects, might be mitigated,
if each one of your radiation units, is piped off the supply header individually, then, a better bet, would be, thermostatic radiator valves on each radiator - it's the best way if you can do it - you just set the main thermostat's temp request for me mean desired temp just at the thermostatic radiator valve's temp, and set the tstats on off times, you can't really do temperature setback, effectively if the radiator valves are controlling the flow, since they are set for 68 floor temp, and will be all be wide open, with your tstat in night setting, - ( the ultra's setback is ok, because the radiator valves are only controlling flow based on room temp, not the water supply temp - so they will just stay open longer with 150f water then with 190f water) - note this setup is effectively, a zone per radiator, but you still need a differential pressure bypass valve, past the pump, back to the return line, to bypass the pump's pressure, when most of the zones are closed (and of course you need to pipe, primary/secondary, since bypassed pump pressure, will push the full pumps's head pressure into the boiler, which might pop your boiler relief valve, a can cause lots of fresh water to enter and mess up your system (see dan holohan has a "basement tape" about just that, on one of the hvactv's clips)
so you have many options - zoning with valves, pumps, mixing, common return, reverse return, temp valves per radiator,
braking it up is the right thing to do, you dont light up the whole house when you're in only one part of it,
fyi for nighttime, electric blankets and infrared light for nighttime instant heat in bathrooms, can't be beat for energy efficiency - i sleep with a 55watt heating pad on my abdomen and i am never cold - "stick that in your ultra's heat exchanger and smoke it..."
before you do anything - record temp readings, boiler on/off times, figure out where all your piping is, - it might pay to invest in one of those infrared temp guns with the laser pointer - it will make you supp/ret temp recording a more accurate and easier
it's hard to design a system by remote control, harder still to troubleshoot it, first off, do we have your air problem under control?, floyd was probably right in saying that you expansion tanks is too small, considering it's a gravity conversion, in fact if they are insulated, then there is probably enough water in them, to actually act as a heat storage tank, provided, you did two-stage tstats (circulate on, on first stage)
please, please, please, you have to read dan holohan's "how come" - it's an easy read, will bring you a lot further quickly -
(i would send you mine - but i dont want to take the revenue away from him - being that he is nice enough to give us this forum for free)
and if you can also, ziggi's book, at http://www.hydronicpros.com/Publications/MHH2/MHH2.htm
better yet buy his software Hydronics Design Studio - together with the book, you will be able to play out scenarios before you buy, and whatever heating professional you get for the job, will have a lot more respect for you - the cost of the education, is negligible compared to the cost or savings of the system or the fuel bills
reynz1@bellatlantic.net
01/18/2004 11:25 PM
To
kalro@pobox.com
cc
Subject
[spam score 5/10 -pobox] Re: Ultra Piping problem, HELP!
New message has been posted in HeatingHelp.com's The Wall
Forum: The Wall (for Q&A)
Thread: Ultra Piping problem, HELP!
Author: Reynz
Subject: HVAC Novice Makes Startling Discovery
URL: http://forums.invision.net/Index.cfm?CFApp=2&Message_ID=76642
Im a bit disappointed. First an idiotic revelation (to prove how much of a novice I am), then a suggestion.
Here I am muddling around the websites, learning about P/S piping (to make sure my HVAC professional does it right
;-) right), then I discover HVACTV. WHAT THE HECK AM I DOING WATCHING HVACTV. Well, I hate sports, so Ill watch a little HVACTV. Anyway, here it is, Hydronics heating, hot water heating or something like that, where they discuss cycle rate. Hummmmm, controlled by the thermostat, DOUBLE Hummmmmmm. Hot water set it for XXX, Forced hot air for XXX, to determine how often the furnace or boiler cycles, set by the installer. (Well golly gee, I never saw anything like that, and yuk, yuk, yuk, I installed it myself.) So, off to the Honeywell website we go, looking for CT3600 information. Found the installer setup mode and discovered it was preset for, FOR WHAT! gas or oil fired forced hot air. (WHAT AN IDIOT). Going along for two years here, first with a gravity system, then the Ultra, and I had it set for gas or oil forced hot air. (I wonder if that had anything to do with my gas bills being upwards of $450 during the coldest month last year.)
Now my suggestion. When dealing with a novice, you know, a What does my thermostat look like novice like me, first ask, and always ask, Is your thermostat set up correctly? Who installed it and where is it installed? I cant begin to tell you how much I learned here. Hopefully you learned from it as well, because as the old saying goes You can learn a lot by teaching. Thanks for your help. I still have one lingering questions about zoning, that I have not been able to get an answer to, but Im trying to figure out how to articulate it. Here it goes.
Here is my system, and a good description of the twp pipe system. "Built for larger homes, it uses one pipe to carry hot water to the CI Baseboard Rads and another to return the water to the boiler. Because it flows through a separate pipe, the cooler return water doesn't pass through the other CI Baseboard Rads, and so the supply water remains hotter as it travels to the far end of the system."
If I have that type of system, why cant I create a separate zone by running a separate supply line, connecting it to each of the baseboard rads in my zone, and just use the existing common return. Each rad I have is fed directly from the supply line, and the return goes directly into return line and not onto another, but heads right back to the boiler. Can I have two zones that share a common return?
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Repiping
Kal, I'm considering a new thermostat with my WM Ultra, while my HVAC pro is here doing some work.
I'm not happy with the 4 or more degree differences in tempature flucuation with the Honeywell. During all our discussions about my particular problem, did you recommend a more accurate thermostat, with less of a tempature spread? I've enjoyed your comments on my situation, and would appreciate your opinion on this one too.
My HVAC professional is going to repipe my boiler (P/S), as WM requires, add a second circulator (I'm recommending a B & G 100 thanks Dan), and installing a Ultra Plus DHW heater. With all these kids, I want a little more hot water.
Reynz0 -
you may want to make that
b&g 100 a Brass one, as the sludge from your old cast pipes is less likely to stick to it and plug up internally, i know at $250+ it's a bit pricy - but if you oil it every season correctly - it will probably outlive you! in fact all your pumps should be brass cause its one system and there are a lot of old cast pipes in it
as for the thermostats - perhaps more than the temp swing you might want to consider 2 stage and remote sensing -
you could do that with a Tekmar 512 I think the temp swing is really close thats why they use internally anti short cycle delays and temp averaging to keep the boiler from short cycling, and you can adjust how many cycles per hour and/or the minimum on times!!!
besides remote sensing, you can run the internal sensor and remote simultaneously and treat the remote as a slab sensor (as in a radiant system) to level out the system temps there are interesting combos even Tekmar may not have thought of, and It comes with built in freeze protection
anyway, you wire the first stage to bring on the circulators (INCLUDING THE BOILERS PRIMARY), and wire the second stage to turn on the burner, If your running domestic hot water off the same boiler its aquastat will maintain enough minimum temp in the primary, to maintain room temp, of an already heated space
you go here for enlightenment - http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/p185.pdf
the is off the main literature page - http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/literature.html
As for you ultra plus great idea
Are you priority zoning it? what I mean is, the pump leading to the DomesticHotWater tees off before the primary pump and you may want to cut out the primary pump when you need hot water (but be sure to keep up the minimum flow through the boiler with the DMH pump your 155 needs 11gpm the wiley guys arent going to like it much, if you meltdown that heat exchanger they worked so hard on!!!
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Brass, good idea.
As far as priority piping, the Ultra allows for that by turning off the boiler circulator and turning on the DHW circulator. So that shouldnt be an issue (I think). The only thing WM stressed to me is I need to have two flow check valves installed to prevent gravity flow through the primary loop.
I suppose I should ask for flow check valves on my secondary loop also to prevent reverse flow.
I decided on the Ultra plus, because I didnt want to be a total jerk with the repiping request I made to my HVAC professional. I did want a new Ultra plus anyway, so decided to incorporate it into the repiping issue. It wasnt really fair for me to request the repiping without incorporating some additional work if I desired. I guess it could have been considered fair, but I didnt want to do it. I thought that was fair for bother of us.
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acctually with DHW
besides the two flow checks with the pumps, you need to have a spring check on the other pipe coming from the plus, that the actual pump flow overcomes, so that the heat from the hot water tank doesnt migrate right up into the house, since cooler (thus denser) water drops like a rock and displaces the warmer water below it, It will convect even in a single pipe and all the heat from the tank will just go right upstairs especially with those large gravity pipes you have and the ultra will cook your house trying to keep up the temp in the plus in fact lets make ziggi happy (John Siegenthaler, P.E. hydronicpros.com) by putting a spring check on your house return also cause your system is just a shoe in for heat migration problems
and you really should put a mixing valve on the house output side of the plus, in case the tank doesnt hold enough hot water for you, you can run it hotter and mix it down to give you more spare capacity, i fact it's the law in commercial installs - because it limits the output to 120 degrees, and if you put in a mix valve make sure to do at least a 1ft dropdown from the hot output to the mixer, so that the internal valve always moves from ambient cooldown and doesnt get stuck you can get a lot of smarts from www.leonardvalve.com the premier domestic hot water mixing people
your contractor can email me with any questions be glad to help
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The Plus tank....
will make amazing amounts of hot water.....
I actually have backed the "setpoint" for the DHW side of the Ultra way back.... and still have tons of hot water.
With the modulating capabilities and the high flow rates of the Ultra, you will have no problem with having copious amounts of hot water... if you do... you got a problem....0 -
I am speechless. ABSOLUTELY SPEECHLESS. I cannot believe that plumbers (Kal, notice I didnt say HVAC professionals) will pipe a job as they always have, on the fly I presume, without looking at the instructions in the manual, and think they have done it absolutely correct. I just received a real snow job from a plumber. He had me so confused I just had to let him do it the way he wanted and have some time to look at it later. I have one common pipe, the one shared between the primary (boiler) circuit and system circuit that is over 35 long. WHAT THE HECK IS WONG WITH THIS CLOSELY SPACED TEE CONFIGURATION? Here were his comments;
- you want to mix the water with warm water before it enters the return of your boiler. Condensation is not good and without it you can extend the life of your boiler. (Excuse me, I have a condensing boiler, it loves cold water returns. Im only a novice, but I know that P/S piping serves more than one purpose)
I cant even go on to explain it further, this entire project has sucked the life out of me. Is primary/secondary such a difficult concept to understand?
1. I want to totally separate my primary from secondary circuit by a little common pipe, anywhere between 4 pipe widths long to 12 long and no longer.
2. I want my boiler loop circulator, the one that came with the WM Ultra, the one that was sized specifically for the boiler loop, to pump away from the compression tank to aid in air removal and something else to do with positive pressure (ok, not to sure about that one)
3. I want the secondary circulator, the B & G Series 100, sized specifically to assist my converted gravity system gently flow water (low head, high volume) from my closely spaced tees to the system circuit. I dont want it on the return side, I want it on the supply side.
4. I dont want a 35 common pipe, those Tees are not spaced closely enough for me. I dont want a second (yes a second) bypass line that I can slow or speed up the water and temp of the mixing water in the loop.
Is it not used very often? In the plumbing world, I think there is a major disconnect between the engineers and the knucklebangers. I am very disappointed with the repiping. I dont think the concept of P/S was understood.
Since this was the second go-round, and Ive only been dealing with plumbers and not engineers, I want to hire an engineering firm or individual, to evaluate the piping and determine if it is consistent with WM instruction, is consistent with generally accepted plumbing standards and if it is worth a darn in the present configuration. I dont even want to send you guys a picture of it, Im really embarrassed. Kal, know any engineering firms in NJ that would be able to give me such an evaluation?
Kal, Floyd, let me know, am I way out of line here?
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you are not out of line -
I cant believe what you are going through, this whole situation seems insane, goes to show you, that even NJ with it's really strict licensing and schooling requirements doesnt necessarily produce better, heating professionals, the experience and formal stuff is useless, unless people keep up, i am a perpetual student, not embarrassed to ask stupid questions about things i should know, i drive instructors at seminars crazy, i am the first on there and the last one out, the day i stop being a student, is the you could put me in a box - and with the explosion of gas prices so has the technology
anyway - you might try your local plumbing inspector, and supply houses, while they may not be able to give you numbers, they may be able to tell you were you could find a really good person in your area
have you tried the find-a-professional on this site, you look up the people near you with the tool provided, and then search the wall for this persons correspondence and if you like what you see go for it,
also www.comfortsystemsusa.com might have someone in your area
what about Weil-McLain , cant they give you contacts?
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I would be spittin' nails.....
Hope you didn't pay the guy for doin' nothin for ya......
you ae no better off than you were before.
Please give us a looky.... I have to see what this guy did....it is quite obvious that he had no idea what he was gettin into.
I'll say it again....
These ain't your grampop's boilers!!!!!!!
Where in NJ are you????
There's got to be someone near you that understands these things.....
PJO, the resident HO that posts here regularly lives in NJ and maybe he could help point you to someone.
Heck, if your near Stone Harbor, maybe I'll just have to take the family to the beach and come fix the darn thing in a saturday for ya.
:-)0 -
I'll slow down now
Ok, let me first say that although I am totally confused, the configuration does not appear to be anything remotely similar to P/S setup I have looked at over the past three months, but, it may be the best job in the world. Floyd, you really make me chuckle, "give us a looky?" I'll send ya a picture. Let me get situated and get back to you later today.0 -
to be fair to purists
weil's own diagram is not really considered P/S but rather Primmary injection - see the 2 diags attached0 -
OPPS - CORRECTION
reynz: i corrected the pump flows in the pi.jpg and enhanced it for your plus piping0 -
You might have something here
Kal, his emphasis was almost always on mixing the water as not to put cold water back into the boiler return. Hummmmm, I think you have it there. If I would have to characterize what this entire set up looks like to me, I would have to call it heat injection. Let me try to explain...
As the supply water exits my boiler, it connects with a T. One side of the T brings in secondary circuit water, pushed by the secondary circulator, which mixes with hot supply. They both travel down the "35 inch" common pipe where they can do one of two things; enter the secondary circuit as heat supply, or continue down to another T where it mixes with return water and enters back into the boiler. The water traveling down the "35 inch" common or I suppose mixing pipe is being pushed by both the Taco 0011 and the B & G 100. There is a valve that allows me to more or less add water to raise or lower the temp of the return water temperature. Ugh. More to come.
HOWEVER, AND A BIG HOWEVER, anyway you look at it, the addition of this boiler has greatly improved comfort and I'm very satisfied with it. Additionally, I leave my house running at 70 degrees all the time, and seemed to have saved 25% in gas savings.
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The King
Kal, YOU ARE THE KING.
What can I say, you are the man. Let me know what you think of the last post....0 -
my message got clipped
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Correct
Absolutely correct. When on, the Taco 0011 pushes water into the boiler feed side, thus continuing to push water out the supply side and through the same 35 inch long pipe that the B & G 100 pushes it through. At the end of the pipe is a T. The water can continue around through the boiler again, or enter the inlet on the secondary, system circuit to provide heat. So, there is a double push. And, I can't believe that this action would not allow independent circulation in the other circuit. A long common pipe, isn't it?0 -
lets try again
first a lttle info
your text, "mixing pipe is being pushed by both the Taco 0011 and the B & G 100", well, not quite, you see, the reason behind closely spaced tees, is, that one loop can only affect the temp of the other loop not the actual flows so dont think of the water being pushed by both - rather water being taken from one pot to another but the water in each pot flow at its own rate (thats of course, if, you got the tees close enough) also I think that weil chose the pump placement on the return so that it pumps away from the point of zero pressure change if you look at my diag, the Spirovent (were the feed connects) is the point of zero pressure change, and both pumps are pointed away from it
now, I cant quite visualize you new piping, you can use paint brush, to scribble up a diag for us, doesnt have to be fancy, click start, select run, type pbrush.exe, hit enter when paintbrush launches, scribble up a diagram, then save as a gif in the sav-as drop list and post it, so that we can see whats going on paintbrush wont do what I can do in powerpoint, visio, and all the other tools I use, but it will get it out the door just the same, but be careful in it, since you can only undo the last three things, and keep saving sections with different name for later use - quick hint, holding the shift key when you draw lines keep them straight and limited to 0,45,90 etc
and we can mark it up and post it back, even my picture, you can right click in explorer on it and save-picture-As, select bmp, and then mark it up in paint brush, then save it as gif and repost, in fact you can right click on the pic, and hit copy and paste it into paintbrush and rip
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I HATE SPYWARE
locked up my whole machine - had to reboot twice
i was in the middle of giving you a symbol file to draw with
I attached a symbol file for you to cut and paste with keep two paint brushes open with the symbols in one, can select a symbol in one with the area selection tool (the top right tool), then copy and paste to your diag
ps the symbols are ziggis design (hydronicpros.com) I just drew them in power point for my own use, made som minor changes and added some - you get these and lots of other good stuff with his "know-how" cd0 -
no double push that I ca see
Reynz,
If you turn the B&G off and just run the boiler pump, what happens to the water? It hits the zone loop and has a choice to either go backwards 3 feet in a fairly large copper pipe or around through the zones. If I guess that you have 1.25" pipe, that comes to an inch or two of head loss for the three foot run at a reasonable flow rate. If there are a cuople elbows, you add the effective length of these. Things that produce significant drag would have much more impact, but piping doesn't have too much.
Now what happens when you turn both on? So the same thing happens, except that the watter slows down on the 3 foot leg from the water being pulled off the zone loop for the boiler loop. Because drag is a velocity squared function for a fixed pipe, the head loss for the 3 foo section drops a bit more than the 1 inch that you had before. It's still in the range of a couple inches of head.
The idea is to create as close to 0 head loss between the tees so that there is becomes almost zero impact on the B&G pump, but you can see that even a few feet makes a very small difference in the whole system.
That doesn't mean it wasn't done poorly, just that it's possible that the impact is not critical.
hope that helps,
jerry
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0 -
the attachement system on the wall is a little picky
it has to be or we'd get swamped with viruses
so far the only things i could attach were
.pdf, .jpg, and .gif
also you cant just type the image path and hit enter - you need to hit the "attach" button
any way - i re-read you text, and if i am understanding it, your "closly-space-tees" are 35 inches apart - if that is the case, then, lets just say, you are pioneering,
this may all work in your case since the load is an old gravity system which likes a good heat source and slow flows
still want a pic or diag - to be sure0 -
Things have settled down a litte
Ok Kalro, an update. My HVAC Professional (notice professional) called today. He has agreed to work with me and the book and come up with a piping arrangement suitable for all. Calm minds will prevail. By the way, Weil McLain customer service and customer relations are superb. As far as Im concerned there is only one boiler manufacture. Ok, maybe Tekmar has some good controls also.0 -
they all have their ups and downs
but anyone who has been in business 20+ years cant be a total screw-up - you happen to have bought an exceptionally well engineered and tested product, and on old timer about cast iron boilers, and they will tell you that they are not putting enough iron into them, its true but its also economics the boilers have to heat up faster for economy, and with vent dampers, they dont loose heat so fast so manufactures have cut the mass of the boilers
as for tekmar - even those hard core "buy american only" types, will have to admit - that the canadian tekmar corp has the american heatimer corp beat0 -
Cooler heads have prevailed
Kalro and Floyd, Almost sorry to see this thread go. Ok, here it is, third time was a charm............... I am officially a totally satisfied customer.
1. I have closely spaced tees, 4 1/2" apart to be exact.
2. All boiler loop pipes are 1 1/4", and all secondary pipes (new copper) are 1 1/2" to match my iron supply and return.
3. B & G 100 is pumping away from the compression tank and air separator, a good thing (that has to help my air problem).
It was a rough and rocky road, but, I have to honestly say that my HVAC professional (EVENTUALLY) did what he needed to do to create a satisfied customer. I could not have done it without Floyd and Kalro. Thanks. Kalro, no litigation needed, but it could have easily headed in that direction. One can't argue with the book! LeadPipe, don't give up, if your contractor piped it incorectly, as you mentioned in an earlier post, keep at it.
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congrats
Ill bet it's now quiet, stable, and doesnt short cycle,
well, good luck, glad to have helped - learnt a great deal myself, about the ULTRA, - and got rid of my own aluminum, heat ex prejudice
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Great!!!!!
Glad to hear that you are on track now......
stay tuned.... WM will soon be giving more access to the parameters under the hood of that Ultra.....
0
This discussion has been closed.
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