Ultra Piping problem, HELP!

F Reynolds

I have a converted gravity system. When they Weil McLain Ultra 155 was installed, they used an Extrol expansion tank, which leads me to believe it is a closed system. What do I know. I have had a lot of excess air in the system which has required me to bleed my cast iron boilers almost weekly. (My wife says it is Chinese water torture to hear the water bubbling through the lines) I’ve always suspected since my system was installed two months ago, that it was piped incorrectly. If it has an automatic air vent and make up water supply line, why should there be air in the system almost two months later, with weekly bleeding? When I look at the Ultra Boiler Manual, page 12, “Install Water Pipe”, the diagram leads me to believe the make up water supply line should be located after the diaphragm expansion tank on a line running perpendicular off the main supply line. I mean, first the make-up water supply line is connected to the expansion tank, then the tank connected to an air separator that also houses the automatic air vent which runs off the main supply line. My water supply line is actually connected directly to the supply line. The expansion tank branches off the main supply line further from the boiler. Is this darn thing piped incorrectly???????

I’m only making the assumption that I have a closed system, because the Radiant heat.net website states that “Expansion tanks are required on systems which are closed and recirculate the same fluid over and over”. So, I think I have a closed system. Reynz

Kal Row

what you need to look for is as followes:

it is a closed system - unless the expansion tank in the attic is still there

is the pump past the expasion tank? (ie pumping away)
is it piped like pg 13 figure 4 top?

is the feed pressure set to 5.8psi for every story in the house, if the highest radiator/basebard is 15ft above the boiler you should have about 17lbs set, look at the gauge.

did someone check the air pressure on the espansion tank's air connection before instalation.

FYI in the ultra 155 has a Cast mono block aluminum heat
exchanger - not cast iron, so be carefull with it - no cold shocks please

the ultra is a condensing boiler so it's is best used on lower temprature devices like radiant - while it works, it's not a good fit for old cast radiator or even copper fin-coil in colder areas


where is the person that did this? was he paid in full?
was his price too cheap


weil-mclain is determind to make a name for themselves with this boiler - so ask them
Weil-McLain consumer relations department hours are from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Central time, Monday through Friday, excluding holidays. Phone: 219-879-6561 and ask for Consumer Relations

Floyd_5

First off...

Reynz, my feeling is that you may have a leak in the system somewhere and you are feedig constant makeup water to the system and thus the air problem.....shut off the feed valve and see if the press. drops.....or by feeling the feed water pipe you can tell, it will be cool from the water going in.

I disagree with Kal as to the cold shock busines and the application for a gravity conversion system...this boiler loves cool water and you cannot shock it, also if you play with it a bit you will find that you probably can run your water temps in the 160 range and still get enough heat out of it AND the boiler will still be condensing....my house is all CI rads and CI baseboard and I have yet to crank it over 160 at temps down to 0 in a house with NO insulation.
I have also installed this boiler in copper fin tube apps. and have had very good success with it, just make sure you have enough radiation so you don't have to run the sucker at 200....of course I think it is very poor bus. to design any system to run at high temps.

Hey, post some pics. of your system if you can, it will help a ton to see what is there....

Floyd

ScottMP

Kal

I have not used the Ultra but it is a condensing boiler right. Being that a condensing boiler loves a wide delta T, is'nt a cast iron radiator job a perfect fit for this boiler ?

Piped properly would'nt the cooler retruns from cast iron keep this boiler in condensing mode where its most efficeint ?

To the HO I would check the preasure of the boiler and make sure its high enough.

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kal Row

i agree with the leak theory.

i seams most likely

as to the fit of the system...
i was led to believe years ago, by the hyrotherm people, that to be fully condensing, (what they call extracting every last bit of heat out of the flue gases), the return
water temp has to be below 100 degrees, you are telling me, that you can get the full value, with water, returning at say 140 degrees?, and you vent this with pvc pipe?, i'd love to know how this is done, because the WM people themselves at ISH told me that their CG series with a boiler protection loop, is a much better fit, for fin-coil or cast radiator system - so share your system's secret with us -
and while aluminum can handle the wide delta-t's better than cast ion, the overall hardiness of it is less, otherwise most of the other fully condensing people wouldnt be using stainless-steel
- by cold shock i did not mean cold start or steady cold return, i ment the boiler running hot like 160, and then another huge zone with 50 degree water hitting it, i dont think it would handle that any better than cast iron

and if you do a snow-melt system and use the wrong anti-freez, you can kiss your aluminium heat ex goodby!! i wouldnt think of doing it without a flat-plate heat ex in between

If you want fully condensing - bite the bullet and go stainless IMHO

the best thing going for the ULTRA is the Weil-mclain company itself, they simply cant afford to have you fail

F Reynolds

A little bit more information

Actually, I'm an idiot. First I incorrectly said I had to bleed the boiler weekly. I meant I had to bleed the cast iron baseboards weekly. Secondly, although I received the information about the closed system from the radiant heat.net website, I have cast iron baseboards. Sorry.

Kal, some information in response to your question.
The circulator is before the expansion tank. It pushes the return line water into the boiler, and the expansion tank is located on the supply side of the boiler on the sypply side. So it is pushing to the expansion tank.

Secondly, it appears the feed pressure is correct. The highest baseboard rad is about 15' above the boiler, and the pressure seems to be set at about 18 psi.

Thirdly, I have no idea if he checked the pressure before installing the tank. I don't think he even had a flue temperature sensor or other gauges or equipment mentioned in the manual (I don't know if you really need these anyway). He did comment that the boiler was more computer than boiler, and he was a little unsure of the manual, since it was very technical.

The company who installed is around, they were inexpensive, but appear professional. Yes, I did pay in full, but am convinced they would return if asked.

Kal, I believe I understand you other question, and the answer is yes, I can get return water temperature at over 168 degrees. That is when it is feeding the supply line with 190 degree water, it ultimately returns at over 168 to the boiler to be heated to 190 again. My outdoor reset target water temperature is set to be upto 190 degrees at 32 degrees outside temperature. That might be a little high, and I probably should set it lower, but it was factory set at 190. Do you think I should set it to a lower temp, say 160? It is adjustable.

I do plan on trying to send a couple of digital pictures of the system. What do you all want to see on the pictures to best explain my situation? Reynz

Kal Row

we need the pictures to see

if the systen is piped as aprimary/secondary, zoning etc

190 at the boiler loop and even the pump on the return side
of the boiler is ok if what you are doing with it, is primary secondary injection like the fig 4 top on pg13 of their manual, (FYI the manuals are on-line for all at http://www.weil-mclain.com/literature/literature.htm)

since your type of radiation needs 180 supply on a 20 degree day the injection needs to be 190 if it was set up with like fig 4, again we need the pictures wide angle and some close ups

for this i would have used primary/secondary with a seperate
injection loop and pump in between and always a spirovent air eliminator

F Reynolds

Pg 13, Figure 4

No it is not piped exactly like Figure 4. Figure 4 shows item #3, Make Up Water Supply as being connected directly to the diaphragm and not directly into the supply line, as mine is. I don't know if that would have an effect on how the diaphragm works to release air, or bring up water to resupply the system should it need more water.

Kal Row

the expasion tank

an expansion tank is designed to take up the change in water volume at it heats, it has air on one side and water on the other (system) side, now in the business we call the point where it's attached to the system as the point of 0 pressure change, it's suposed to hold that static pressure.

when the circulator goes on it creates a difference in pressure from inlet to the outlet, lets say a 5 pound difference for argument sake, now if the pump is pumping to the point of no pressure change and it's at 18psi then the pump needs to create at it's inlet 13psi because the expansion tank wont let it get higher than 18 on the outlet, if the system has a lot of water friction in it pipes, by the time water gets back to the pump the pressure might have dropped to say 4psi, now a pump sucking down 5psi at that point will take it to -1 psi, so you see how the air gets sucked in,

now if the pump is just past the point where the expansion tanks connects, then it cant drop the pressure, so it has to increase it, in your case to 23psi - which would leave it positive even on the return side,

i assume you have an air separator, it has to be installed where the water is hottest, and max static pressure to get the most air out

this is frustrating i know - if only you had come here first...


buy Dan holohan's videos/books on this site and John sigienthaler's books/software at http://www.hydronicpros.com/Publications/MHH2/MHH2.htm
dan's videos are educational and very funny and even my friends not intersted in hydronics loved them

Kal Row

diaphragm tank

the diaphragm expansion tank is designed to take up the change in water volume at it heats, it has air pressure on one side and system water pressure on the other side,
now in the business we call the point where it's attached to the system, as the point of 0 pressure change, it's supposed to hold that static pressure.

when the circulator goes on it creates a difference in pressure from inlet to the outlet, lets say a 5 pound difference for argument sake, now if the pump is pumping to the point of no pressure change and it's at 18psi then the pump needs to create at it's inlet 13psi because the expansion tank wont let it get higher than 18 on the outlet, if the system has a lot of water friction in it pipes, by the time water gets back to the pump the pressure might have dropped to say 4psi, now a pump sucking down 5psi at that point will take it to -1 psi, so you see how the air gets sucked in,

now if the pump is just past the point where the expansion tanks connects, then it cant drop the pressure, so it has to increase it, in your case to 23psi - which would leave it positive even on the return side,

i assume you have an air separator, it has to be installed where the water is hottest, and max static pressure to get the most air out

this is frustrating i know - if only you had come here first...

you in deep you need info
buy Dan holohan's videos/books on this site and John sigienthaler's books/software at http://www.hydronicpros.com/Publications/MHH2/MHH2.htm
they cost only a tiny fraction of what you paid for that system and dan's videos are very funny and even my friends not intersted in hydronics loved them
you dont need to be a wet-head (slang for heating prfsnls) or an engineer

dont forget to crawl around your attic and look for old pipes and vents that might not be sealed

Floyd_5

Kal,

I respectfully disagree again....how can you say that he needs 180* at 20* outdoor... you haven't done a heat loss and haven't measured the baseboard....you have no idea what the needs are....the need is whatever temp. is needed to maintain temp. inside on any given day. If there is plenty of baseboard it may well be much les than 180 and if he can turn the boiler down say 20 or 30 degrees and still heat the house the eff. of the boiler will be greater.
I turned the sucker down till it didn't keep up and then raised the setpoint to where it held constant temp. BINGO, I have my sweetpoint! Max eff.!
Now also comes the debate over the piping....if as he says he has a converted gravity system the he has very little pressure loss in the system and that system will work just fine with one pump piped directly to the baseboard...the 0011 that is provided with the boiler will work just fine....this is the exception, and not the rule... in this case an injection system is totally unneccesary.

With these new boilers there is going to be a lot of relearning to do.....they are not your grandpop's boilers...I sat out at WM in March and couldn't believe what I was seeing and made up my mind right there that I hated the darn thing....and made some stupid comments about them before I took the time to learn and digest what was going on with them. My curiosity got the best of me and I had to try them.....now I after installing one in my own house and seeing a 1/3 reduction in my gas usage....and yes it is CI baseboard running at 160, with only one pump, I have a monoflo system...I am finding ways to use this boiler, that I never thought possible.

I have had a boiler running in an AG. application that hasn't shut off since 9/16/03, this boiler is using less than half the gas of an identical setup with a CI boiler, saving the owner 25.00/day.....won't take long to pay it off at that rate.....
I am also getting ready to fire up a larger radiant job with two 155's setup with a Tekmar 265 that will give complete modulation from 30-300,000....now that should be sweet!!!!
That system will run wth no mixing devices and most times should be around 120 or less, switch to high heat for DHW making, purge and than switch back to low temp for radiant...Can't wait!!!!

All this, to just encourage you to "think outside the box"

Floyd

Kal Row

the 180 suply and

160 return is an avg - i don’t like to be married to a job so i put in p/s with injection and a tekmar and let it find it's own sweet spot for any given day

i am also not debating the efficiency of the ultra - it not being a good fit for the old large and heavy radiation was their opinion - otherwise why would they make the cv gold series with the primary/secondary built-in and all sorts of high tech goodies

as for the pressure example - the guy was asking about his pipe arrangement and why - so i gave him example info and reference material

i still think he has an air leak somewhere, for all we know there is an automatic air vent in the attic that vents inward, when the system comes to rest but doesn’t vent outward - this happens a lot with those wet paper types that are suppose the let air out through the dry paper but seal the second it gets wet, but a lot of times the paper gets wet at startup burst and never lets air out, but if it's high above the static pressure point, it will dry and let air in when the system stops - i have changed a whole lot of these for the float type - this is why i always add another floor to my pressure setting just in case

you wont believe how many houses i found with vents in the attic with dry pipe underneath since it was effectively higher than the pressure setting, and the weight of the water in the house kept it well below it – for all I know this person has a basement, 2 floors and an attic, if was a gravity system, then it’s probably one of the old houses, built with high ceilings, and the 17 pounds it is set for, is not enough, so he has to raise it to 22 pounds, then isolate and drain the expansion tank and charge it to that also,

we are sparing over academics, when the guy seems to have been blatantly screwed by the installer, assuming there is nothing else going on here we don’t know about, I hate to pass judgment without both sides,
but a system should hold pressure water with feed valve closed, my low water cutoffs for hot water system are not on the boiler, but rather high in the boiler room piping above
the pumps to protect them also and I use a led and alarm to indicate a problem,
Whether the ultra was correct for him is the least of his problems

LEAD PIPE

I don't know

1% of what these guys know I am a homeowner who hired the wrong installer. I can tell you that it took a while to get all the air out of my system too. I still get a little puff now and again out of the top of the HW heater.

On a side note, Floyd I noticed a tapping sound as the boiler is firing. It happens about every 10 seconds and I'm sure it is medal expanding. I didn't notice this earlier doe's yours do this? Also right before the boiler fires there is a perge, I get some gas coming out of the vent. It only lasts for a couple of seconds is this normal? I posted this and people seemed to think so but I don't think any of them owned one.

thanks

Ray Landry

Condensing natural gas

Isn't it true that to condense natural gas, you need to have heat it above 136 degrees (The point where gas condenses?) That's what I was taught at a veissman seminar at least. So in theory, return temps lower then the 100's probably wouldn't allow the gas to condense right?

Ray Landry

Condensing natural gas

Isn't it true that to condense natural gas, you need to have heat it above 136 degrees (The point where gas condenses?) That's what I was taught at a veissman seminar at least. So in theory, return temps lower then the 100's probably wouldn't allow the gas to condense right?

F Reynolds

Let Me Explain

Wow, what a discussion. Obviously there is a lot of experience in this forum, and in those areas where things are not cut and dry, there are well thought out opionins.

1. I was the one who opted, against the suggestions of installers, the Ultra. The installer who put it in felt it had not been on the market long enough for him to feel fully confident about it, but installed it anyway. His concerns were not based upon if it was a good fit for the house, but that it was very new. I still feel confident that the Ultra was a good choice for me, and once I get it the way I want it (what type of day/night setback, circulator constantly on or off unless a call for heat) I'm sure it will work well. I have already noticed at least a 25% reduction in gas bill for Dec, and suspect it will be more once it is set up properly.

2. I called the installer last night and expressed my concern. He said it normally takes 4 to six weeks for all the air to bleed out of the system, and although we are now past that, he suggested that we wait for another week or two and if it still did not clear up, he would purge the system himself (he is the owner of the company), and/or troubleshoot to see what the problem may be. (VERY RESPONSIVE) He also suggested that we may need to put a automatic bleed on each of the four upstairs baseboard rads to correct the problem. I don't know, but I will certainly relay all the information I've learned here, THANKS KAL AND OTHERS.

3. And Kal, you said "for all I know this person has a basement, 2 floors and an attic, if was a gravity system, then it’s probably one of the old houses, built with high ceilings, and the 17 pounds it is set for, is not enough, so he has to raise it to 22 pounds, then isolate and drain the expansion tank and charge it to that also" RIGHT ON THE MONEY. However, I don't have the high ceilings, unless 8' is considered high. It is a big house, but the attic is not heated. I have been over the house and do not beleive (AGAIN, WHAT DO I KNOW) there are any other type vents, unless on occasion, there is another one other than the expansion tank previously located in the upstairs bedroom closet, that he removed and capped. The gravity system also used the two pipe system, for dedicated supply and return lines to get hot water to each radiator.

However, I will say the new expansion tank is located right on the supply line, and not branched off to put it in a better "0" pressure location. Thanks for that information Kal. I don't know if that has that much to do with it, but the installer said that location wouldn't really be a problem. Kal, on the other hand, you make an impressive argument about it being located somewhere else, assuming I understand your comment. Reynz (Oh, I'm still planning on taking pictures and posting them)

F Reynolds

You have one too?

Floyd,

I again read your comments and found them very comforting. I hope I understand you correctly;

You kept adjusting down, the Operating Temperature Target from 190, until the boiler could not keep the house constant, then turned it up until the target water temp could keep the house constant. Your target temp was ultimately 160 degrees, in a house with no insulation?

Also, the boiler installed in the AG (whatever that means) constantly runs, and that in itself does not cause a problem? I was concerned that if I turned down the target temp on the boiler and it ran longer, that it would be a problem. I think your saying it would not. Is this correct? I suppose, that considering how the boiler works, longer operation time at a lower temp, helps the system to stay in the condensing mode, uses less gas, and helps with the overall efficiency of the system. Correct?

People used to be under the impression that one should turn off a computer when not in use. We now know it is better just to leave it turned on. Reynz

Kal Row

i think it's the other

way around, above 136 the flue gas wont condense, colder always condenses, that's why boiler protection loops on cast iron is set to a min of 140 so that we dont get any of the corrosive condensation,

also on those new boilers we can get almost all the heat out of the flue gas if the return is cool enough nevertheless the fire still burns efficiently - by the way they inject and swirl the flame and run it for hot to cold, ie the hottest part of the flame is where the water exits which is where the water is hottest, and progresses to where the cooled water comes in, - which is not the case in cast iron - when the flame hits the cold exchanger it actually produces co since the fuel air mixture cools and seperates to the point were you need more air for complete burning, (not enough air, ie rich mixture produces co, the "not enough air" can happen many ways, cold mixtures, mixture separation if it impinges at speed on a surface, no stack draft, no fresh air, etc) - with these "condensing" boilers, the flame is perfect and then we remove the left over heat from the flue gas after combustion

ps the veissman is my favorite of these types, it has the best heat exchanger on the market IMHO - though they are all good, and i have to tip my hat to floyd on this one, you will probably get the best support and parts availability with the UTLRA, Weil-Mclain is tough to beat - sorry

Floyd_5

Reynz,

You seem to be understanding me....te operation of a boiler especially the modulating type will be the best when you can get the longest run times possible. Last night here in N. Central Pa., we had a 10* night with a stiff wind, the boiler has been running constant, but at less than full fire, right now I running a 10 difference between the supply and return.
150 return and 160 supply, that should mean that I'm running somewhere a bit les than half fire. WM tech services says that they will be adding an parameter to the boiler to tell where it is running in the near future....
The story here is that it is much more comfortable and more eff. for the boiler to be running at a lower fire constantly than to be running at full fire and slamming on and off, plus I get no temp. swing in the house, and the house is warmer at a lower temp. because of the constant steady heat!
I have been running 2-3 degrees less this winter than last with better comfort....changed nothing but the boiler.
As to the no insulation business... my house was built in the 20's, brick, air gap, and plaster walls on the inside...third floor is drywalled right under the roof joists and there isn't a bit of insulation anywhere to be found....talk about heating a barn!
The agricultural application, is a situation where heat plates are used for baby pigs to stay warm on to encourage them not to snuggle up to the mother and get smothered when she lays down on top of them. The heat load is constant and the boiler just modulates up and down the the load requirements. I actually have the boiler thinking that it is making DHW and it is running on the setpoint mode for that application, but it is working really well... we'll soon know how much one of those things can take!!! I think of it kinda like the lab tortue test... only this is a real life envioronment!


Have fun with your new toy!!!

Floyd

Kal Row

question for floyd on ultra and tekmar

if you have an ultra which comes with outdoor reset, and a teckmar 361 or other tekmar that controls pri/sec/mixing which also has outdoor reset, do the computers fight or complement each other in this setup - neither vendor can gives me real hard info on this, you seem to have experiance with this, i dont want to learn at a customer's site.

LEAD PIPE

Floyd

I tried e-mailing you but it wouldnt go through. I think you missed my post higher up in this thread. Doe's these things seem okay to you?

Kal Row

ah you meen the

one with 2 ultras and tekmar 265 and you will let the ultra's handle the modulation - please report when it's done, cant wait, inquiring minds want to know

i wonder what tekamr thinks about having their control play dumb - pity, both tekmarand WM, dont have good public tec-supp emails


ps pobox.com has very strong spam control - your isp may be blacklisted by them - it's weird

Floyd_5

Lead,

I'm not sure what the taping might be.... don't know that I have heard a peep out of mine... just does it's job and the last 30hrs or so it hasn't shut down... just purring along....
I gues I would take the cover off and try to isolate where the noise is coming from, obviously there will be some expansion in the heat x but I'm sure that that is harmless, the heat x is a cast alum. mono block which means that it is oured in one pour and has no seems so that there is less area for stress cracks to form. The way I'm told there is only one foundry that can do the cast alum. that way and it ain't in the US.
At any rate try to figure what area of the thing the noise is in.
As for the gas smell, I have never stood in front of mine when it lights off....but it wouldn't concern me in the least if it did stink a bit when it did....that would be "normal" for me.

Floyd

Floyd_5

Kal,

If you are using a Tekmar 361 just don't hookup the outdoor sensor on the Ultra and it won't reset.
That being said, I really would try my best not to use a mixing control with the Ultra boiler... maybe with a multiple temp. system, then you would use the Ultra to shoot for the highest temp. and then mix down for the lower temps.
The idea with that boiler would be to always run it at the lowest temp. possible.

Floyd

LEAD PIPE

Yea

Ive been listening closely and I took the cover off I deff. is something expanding. I think it is coming from one of the brackets holding the heat exchanger. Its sounds like the heat exchanger is is getting hot and the medal bracket ticks a little because of the contact. I just lowered my output temp on the outdoor set back to 152 at 32 degrees. It is running more so I don't know if it will help or hurt the gas bill. The room temps are still good. I already noticed that it is condencing a lot more. I used to hear the water running to the pump in the begining and after the boiler shut down but now I can hear it throughout the entire cycle. I hope thats good. Now if the circ runs longer than 10 min the boiler will automaticly boost the out put temp up 18 degrees, 170, right. Thats what I'm getting from the manual but its worded a little odd.

thanks again

Floyd_5

The Ultra and 265 combo....

Tekmar has worked with WM to develop an interface kit so that the Tekmar will actually control the modulation of the Ulra boilers... it will allow parallel or continuous modulation, reset, and rotation of the boilers.
Actually the interface kit is not on the market yet but has been promised shortly.
As for tech support... both Tekmar and WM have been extremely cooperative with me.

Floyd

Floyd_5

The boost feature...

is only if the boiler is running in reset above 32 degrees...if it is below 32 the boiler will run to the 152 setpoint. I think they are a little distrustfull and want to CTA's on this. I wish it would reset all the way down to 0. it will come so that it can be progrmmed that way but it will take them some more time and more feed back till they let it be done. As for the longer run times... that's good!

And, the tick is probably harmless.

Floyd

Kal Row

great news indeed

i am big on both manufactures - the last customer i tried to sell on an ultra, was afraid of aluminum - ok, maybe he sensed my hesitation too, but as gas prices are going in one direction only, they will come around.
for now at least pri/sec/vari-injection + with outdoor reset is an easy sell

i am waiting on a bunch of new stuff from tekmar, i was about to use a tekmar 371 whole house control, but when i compared it to some of their other stuff, i realized it was older technology, they should have a new version by summer

Grundfos too, has new pumps with intelligence that will make the 3-way mix valve on a pump per zone system obsolete

I suspect in a year from now we will be seeing a bunch of different Q/A’s on the wall,
Though this happened in the eighties with computerized cars, mechanics got so flustered with electronics, they forgot the basics, my best friend had a shop, and I used to help him with electronics, one day a car came from a different mechanic with all sorts of lights and codes, was bucking like a wild horse, the other mechanic had already changed the computer, - I just hooked up a vacuum gauge, disconnected the ignition coil and
cranked the engine, no cranking vacuum = “BAD VALVES”, old fashioned basics, right, the computer went nuts trying to adjust for it,
imagine an ultra with a birds nest in the intake pipe, you know, it going to happen on someones sloppy installation, and we will go crazy!!!

“do maarrre dey monn-kee aahp da verrks, da ee see ah tis to staaff aahpp da plaamming…”
Scotty in Startrek I

F Reynolds

I'm doing it too Leadpipe

Ok, we will try it together. I had done the same earlier myself, however, I started at 176, then to 170, and then said the heck with it, let's go for 160 degrees target outlet target temperature. Mine is also condensing a lot. The one positive thing I have seen through the process, is I'm not getting those wild fluctuations in temperatures, from 69 to 74 degrees, with the regular heating process. It is remaining somewhat consistent, with only minor changes in temp. However, I understand what you said about the manual. It does state it will boost the temp up 18 degrees every ten minutes, but I'm sure that is only to the target outlet temp and not over what you had set. Tonight will tell. In the Phila are it is going down, down, down. We will see what happens. If it works as I think it will, I'll be hooked, and thrilled that I bought an Ultra. Let me know how it worked out for you. We will be in this experiment together tonight. Did you set your unit for constant circulator operation or only to come on when there is a call for heat? It is programable on the Ultra, but not clear how to do it in the manual. I found out by calling WM. Let me know if you want to know how to do it. I can't wait to hear your results tomorrow. Reynz

LEAD PIPE

okay

lets give it a shot. I changed my settings at about 6pm all was well when I left for work. I'm working 11pm to 7am shift tonight so I will hear it from my wife in the morning if it gets cold in the house lol. I wish it would boost above the set point if the circs ran for more than 10 min., this makes more sence to me. As for your piping issues I hope all is well. I had the WRONG installer and it had to be done over. I can tell you this that the boiler would shut down each time we started it when the piping was wrong, so if yours in running it's probably piped okay.
keep me posted.

LEAD PIPE

Also

I didn't know you could run the circs. constant. Are you talking about the main boiler circ.? What is the benefit? Its 6am and no call's from my wife so I guess it went well last night.

F Reynolds

Constant Circ

Yes you can. In the Parameter Mode, Parameter #1 is DHW Heating, #2 is DHW Setup, and #3 is Space Heating Setup. Under Parameter #3, there are three settings, 1, 2, and three, that you change by using the + or - button.

-Parameter 301 is circulator on when call for heat occurs.
-Parameter 302 is circulator on and does not allow a call for heat, I believe.
-Parameter 303 is circulator on and allows a call for heat.

It was explained to me that constant circulation (Parameter Mode 303) is the best way to maintain constant water temp throughout your entire system, and it also minimizes heat loss, especially when using a CI baseboard or radiator system as it is constantly circulating through the system. Copper fin tubing is another story as it is easy to heat up. CI Baseboards and rads on the other hand take a while to heat up.

Oh, results are in. At 160 target temp, house temp was maintained at 71.6 degrees, although it was 24 degrees outside last night. It is still not running all the time, but turns on and off.

Floyd, what do you think about that? Should I turn it down a little more to get more on time, or am I splitting hairs?

Leadpipe, what happened with your experiment? YOU LEFT YOUR WIFE HOME TO DEAL WITH THE RESULTS OF YOUR HEATING TEST! What would have happened if she got too cold? She might have called the neighbor’s husband over to keep her warm. Better be careful.

Kal Row

my ibr

calculations n a job call for 180F supply and 160F return at 20F outside - would i still be able to vent the ultra with pvc pipe? - since if the return is 160 the flue gases cant be colder than that, unless, they increase the combustion fan speed, or byass fresh air around the fire, to dilute it and keep the outlet cool

if you look at pg 44 of the manual note 5 the 98% afue rating is for 90F return and 110F supply - i could not find
a chart from them for other sup/ret temps

i am going to study it more, and watch you guys, keep on posting

Kal Row

according to studies

constant circulation is one of the best things you can do for overall efficiency, a lot of people out there use 2 stage themostats, with the first stage turning on all
the circulator (and by some all the circs in the house), and the second stage turns on the boiler, it makes for a nice even steady quiet effcient system, esplecially with today wet-rotor circs, this came for a govenrment study - i forget the refference - check with GAMA

jim sokolovic

Good observation on the vent temperature...

at higher return water temps - But if you increase the blower rpm, you will increase the input, and consequently the vent temperature. Of course, you can't bypass cool air into the vent either - this is sealed combustion. Use CPVC on the vent - it's approved for 60 degree higher temps than PVC by CSA.

F Reynolds

For Floyd

Please review my Constant circ posting above, I have a couple of questions for ya. Thanks for all your assistance......

Kal Row

the higher

temps also takes care of the birds in the discharge vent

how is slant-fin's condensing project comming along? or is still too secret to talk about?

jim sokolovic

I am involved...

that's one reason I am following these posts so closely. But I very much doubt that my company wants me to give status reports on products that are not announced yet.

Kal Row

your joe copola

is very much involved with the IBR SCHOOL making it's rounds around the country, when you have, you'r new one
ready, i think you should set up a tractor trailer lab
complete with radiant floor, baseboard, even an overhead mini steam system, and take it to every course, i know that joe made extream effort to make the course non manufacture spacific, but if you have to teach, why not demo at the same time, or you can get other vendors to chip in for this rolling hyronics lab, and put in the boiler from those who chiped in, on a multistage tekmar control - hey - a guy can dream

LEAD PIPE

here we go

Everything went wll last night, no neighbors running out the back when I got home. The heat stayed constant in the 2nd floor, bedrooms, at 68 degrees. The 2 zones downstairs drop to 60 degrees overnight and are set to come back up to 68 at 6am. The one problem I found having the the output temp maxed at 152 was when I got home at 7:45am the downstairs rooms were only at 63 degrees. An hour and 45 min and only a 2 degree increase. this is a 2000sf area with 2 zones. I guess I can rase the output back to 160 or start heating the rooms earlier, say around 5am. I'm not sure which would be more efficent. Floyd?
Now about the boiler running constant I am looking at the manual, page 39 for the Ulter 240, and it says parameter 3 "space heating setup" "left digit shows 3. right digit should show 1. DO NOT change these settings as it might effect boiler performance." The DO NOT is in caps in the manual. I am reluctant to change this setting with out more info.

I do have baseboard fin tubing for heat BTW

F Reynolds

Ok, here is the scoop

It is going to change performance. Just stand there and watch the boiler. I have already talked directly to WM about this. Since the circulator is wired directly into the Ultra, there is only one way to control it, with the Space Heating (SH) setup, set from 01 to 03. You will notice that once you make the change, save it, and go back to standby, the only thing that will change is the circ running all the time, and not off like it is now. I have had my circ. running constantly now, with that setting, for about a month. Reynz