Ultra Piping problem, HELP!

Kal Row

15-16 cold is good

just watch it, so it shouldn't get so near the relief pressure, that it starts to drip, then the feed starts bringing in fresh oxygenated water and corroding your beautiful system - a 10lb diff, cold to hot, makes me nervous

the only thing left is the exp tank precharge, if it wasnt checked before install, chances are high, that it was low, and is stretched to the limit - that could be why it goes up so much hot, another reason would be, if it's too small for the amount of gallons you have in the system,

i have a shortcut if you feel like it, you can shut it cold and let the pressure down to 5, and put 16lbs of air into the exp tank with a bicycle pump, and represurize to 17 while cold, and it shouldn't ski-rocket when hot - it's not perfect but it has worked for me when i get to a job without an isolate valve on the exp

Floyd_5

Been watching this....

My feeling is that you have expansion tank problems, ie. not enough air as Kal said, or just plain too small..
You should not be getting those wild fluctuations in press.

Floyd

F Reynolds

Glad you guys are there

Ok, system fired back up again. My Extrol 30, is factory precharged to 12 PSI, I guess. At least that is what it says on the tank. Heat back up to 150, and pressure reading is at 21 PSI. Chugging along. Hummmm, what do you think??

Kal Row

not only is

the exp tank preset to 12, so was your automatic feed, and you got past it by lifting the lever on the feed. Now, the weight of the water above the feed, by you, is, at least 16 maybe more, i would need the exact feet to the highest point, to give the exact value, but the diaphragm is definitely stretched, - they both have to be set, have fun, get your installer back, he is more than welcome to chew me out on the wall for interfering, you cant insult me, "on a cosmic scale, i am a spec of dust in a blink of time"

get the exact height from top to bottom and divide be 2.309, to get the exact static pressure, that will get the water to the highest vent, for 62 degree water, but, you need at least 5 pounds more that, to keep the air out, if you are not using "pump away", since circ pumps on average produces a 5 lb differential - it's all in Dan's "how come"

here is an interesting tidbit, when the water heats up, the pressure goes up, because it expands, but the hotter water is actually lighter because it's less dense - that why you see ziggi's diagrams with gravity or spring loaded check valves all over the place, you can actually get convection in a single pipe!!!, dont you just luuuuuuuvvv physics

F Reynolds

Measurements

Ok, from the top of the boiler, to the top of the highest Weil-McLain CI Baseboard rad is 14.79 feet. The top of the boiler is 3.25 feet from the floor, I don't know if that matters.

I've turned off the circulator, the water temp is 100 degrees, and the heater is not on. It is now sitting at 15 PSI. I'm heading over to get the camera so I can take a picture. Maybe later this afternoon or tonight. What do you want to see?

F Reynolds

Pictures

Ok, front view, side view and control panel..

No pictures of the wife modulating Kal...

Kal Row

14.79 ft ???? and pictures

thought you had two floors and an attic?, anyway (14.79+3.25)/2.309 = 6.51lbs + 5 pounds (for pump-to), makes the factory setting perfect,

if that is really the case, then open a drain and drop it back to 12 lbs cold, how did this get so screwed up?
it just wasnt bled right

floyd is right - too much thinking boy do i feel stuuuuupid!

for pictures: most important is the boiler room piping, pumps, manifolds, wide and narrow angles

LEAD PIPE

more Pictures

more more more

Floyd_5

Wow.....

now I am wondering how that system is piped. I am assuming that the pipe that the supply goes into feeds water both ways and the same for the water coming back in the return line.
One thing I can say is that I don't think that you have the required distance from the ell to the air scoop, it should be a min. of 12-18 inches.
The other thing that may be causing some problems is that in a gravity system, the design is for the water to naturally flow very slowly.... now you just stuck a pump in there that has that water getting dizzy flying around the system at a high velocity.....may be making problems, maybe not....can't tell from here, but I definitely won't have taken the chance if it were my install....
I would have piped it primary/secondary with at most, a 007 on the secondary, and something less than that would be even better.
Also take the primary pump and install it just past the air scoop on the primary, drop the expansion tank, put a tee in there and have your water feed go in there.
Just some things that may make the system work better.....

Still wish I knew better how that system is piped.....

Floyd

F Reynolds

More Pictures

Ok Lead, here ya go.

F Reynolds

I'll tell you how it is piped

Ok, it is a two pipe system. A supply and a return. "Built for larger homes, it uses one pipe to carry hot water to the CI Baseboard Rads and another to return the water to the boiler. Because it flows through a separate pipe, the cooler return water doesn't pass through the other CI Baseboard Rads, and so the supply water remains hotter as it travels to the far end of the system." Thank Reader's Digest for that description.

So, the hot supply line goes from the boiler, to a "T" where it then goes right and left. Right (according to the pictures) to one side of the house and left to the other. The other "T" you see is the return line from the right and left. The circulator is pictures on the left, and pushes the return water into the boiler.

Now as it leaves the boiler on the supply side, it first encounters the pressure relief valve, pictured right above the boiler, as it continues up it then encounters the make up water cold supply line, up then to the red (is that a flow valve?) and hooks a right. It the goes into a "T" and there hangs the expansion tank, then onto the supply line. Wow, I'm tired. Questions? Fire away...

Floyd_5

Okay,

It's basically piped as I thought...
Do you understand what I said about the air scoop,pump and fill valve placement, and the velocity of the system???

Kal Row

i'm speechless }|{< , WM guy, R U C'ing This?

Kal Row

ok, i'm back

Floyd is right, an air scoop needs smooth flow, that’s another reason I use a spirovent, which works even better with turbulent flow, you can actually screw an elbow right into it,

Sorry - but you do need to follow all of floyd’s request’s, those are the basic practices in our industry now, put the pump past the scoop, and you need to tee the feed in under it , since where the highest static pressure and hottest point is – you cant get the most dissolved air, out of the water

Now, do you have any other zone valves or circulators up in there? Or that’s it, it just tees into the header and goes off?

Floyd is also right about the old gravity flow, those were designed for linear flow and pose almost no resistance to the pump

F Reynolds

Not exactly

Some of your questions…

"One thing I can say is that I don't think that you have the required distance from the ell to the air scoop, it should be a min. of 12-18 inches."

Is the air scoop the device sitting on top of the "T" that the expansion tank is sitting under? If so, I don't understand the distance factor. I don't see any mention of it in the book

"The other thing that may be causing some problems is that in a gravity system, the design is for the water to naturally flow very slowly.... now you just stuck a pump in there that has that water getting dizzy flying around the system at a high velocity"
Floyd, according to the book, the Ultra 155 comes with the Taco 011. Hummm, you would know better than I about the speed of the water. The one thing I do know for sure, is that gravity systems, (open systems) had a tendency to corrode the inside of the pipes, thus eventually slowing down the water in the system. Circulators are almost always needed to get the water flowing. Again, as far as speed is concerned, you know better than I.

"I would have piped it primary/secondary with at most, a 007 on the secondary, and something less than that would be even better. Also take the primary pump and install it just past the air scoop on the primary, drop the expansion tank, put a tee in there and have your water feed go in there. Just some things that may make the system work better....."

Now Floyd, am I AN ABSOLUTE IDIOT, or does both piping diagrams in Figure 4, in the Install Water Piping section, show a PRIMARY/SECONDARY CONNECTION? Now, I only have one zone, and one circulator, would it still benefit, and should it have been installed with the P/S connection? No Kal, I have no other zone valves or circulators. The manual specifically states "All piping methods shown in this manual use primary/secondary connection to the boiler loop. These designs ensure proper flow through the Ultra boiler, for the most efficient and reliable operation of the boiler and the heating system. For other piping methods, consult your local Weil-McLain representative for refer to separator Ultra boiler piping guides".

The manual also states, “Connect the expansion tank to the air separator only if the separator is on the suction side of the circulator. Always install the system fill connection at the same point as the expansion tank connection to the system” That is what I had mentioned to you earlier. My expansion tank and air separator are located on the push side of the circulator, not the suction side. My expansion tank connection is NOT connected the same as depicted in the manual. The book shows both the water make up and expansion tank on the same line off the”T” from the system supply line.

Ugh! What have I gotten myself into. Who had said in one of these previous postings, they that have helped plumbers redo work, or required them to redo work, something like that? Was it you Floyd? Well, what do you think Floyd? Kal?

Floyd_5

okay...I'm starting this over here so it's easier to read

there, that should be better.....
Now, for the hard part.....
the air scoop is the green thingy that the float vent is on top of...that there air scoop needs the water to be in a linear flow so that the air rises to the top of the water so that it can be diverted out....hence the need for some straight pipe ahead of it.
Now, you should haave had this boiler piped as shown in figure 8 "zoning with circulators", yes you only have one zone, but, you still NEED two circulators.
Look at the first statement!!!!
"The boiler circulator CANNOT be used for a zone. It must supply ONLY the boiler loop."
The circulator you have there can be left there...however you still need to install ANOTHER circ. in the old gravity piping AND get the airscoop, exp. tank, and fill valve, there also where they belong.

That second circ. does not need to be and in fact should not be a high velocity, high volume pump...what you want to do is find a pump that will just gently flow the water through your old gravity system to as closely as possible mimic the way the system was originally intended and designed to run.

Relax!!!!! It can be salvaged... just a litttle more work needs to be done yet.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...I guess your pictures were worth about what 80 some posts to this thread.
I think we finally got to the bottom of things!

Floyd

Kal Row

ok, with gavity sized pipes

pumping through them causes the water to stream in the center of the pipe in a linnear fasion but at the outside it flows slowly and acts as a heat sink, sometimes bigger is not better, this is a tough call, but a 0011 is listed as a high velocity pumpsucks the heat out of the not

Kal Row

i am also using post new msg

floyd is right - (this is getting scary) attached are the pump curves, find your pump line, go to the middle of the arc, and then down to the gpm (GallonsPerMinute) - to get an idea of where the pump operates best

also gravity sized pipes, when pumped with high-velocity pumps, tend to stream the water in the center in a laminar fashion, and the outside is barely moving, and gives you heat looses in the pipe, turbulent flow on the other hand, makes for more pump resistance, but the water makes poor contact with the walls, so less heat loss,

sometime we break intoaaa it, and insert smaller diameter pipes along the way to make the flow turbulent

well, it’s is an “all on” system, so at least you are never cold shocking the boiler

while I agree with floyd, (after all, it basic, and in the manual), I still want to take it slow, especially in the dead of winter, since your system is working remarkably well, under the circumstances – your system could work for 30 years as is – it wont be perfect – but wont break either – especially now that you got the air out and the pressures back to normal. – I don’t want your wife to divorce you, those young’uns need their da-da

when it warms up a bit and if it’s not to much money, move the pump past the air separator, and tee the water feed in under it, and add a large globe after the pump, so that you can slow it down – but not too much, the ultra needs some serious flow to protect it

after that – we connect the supply and return from their tees together on a header so that it looks like fig 4 top, and closely tee in the boiler pipes, then you add a 007 on the supply side, and put the 0011 back on the boilers supply, on what, is now, the boilers primary, and you need a relay off the boilers pump, to power the second pump

let Mat Downs from WM (mdowns@weil-mclain.com) look at it and advise – before you through good money after bad

LEAD PIPE

I feel your pain

I still have to make piping changes on mine too. I'm waiting for the spring though, It was more a matter of turning circs. than anything else but still disapointing. The plumber that did mine has all ready repiped it once. He has a good rep. but he is "old school" and this was over his head. I'm suprised the boiler didn't lock out on you, mine kept coming up with an improper piping code. I am going to try to do the piping myself in the spring. I just don't trust anyone to work on it at this point. I wish W/M had classes to install these boilers, Maybe they do. Anyway here is the thread from when I posted my photos, These guys were easy on you, lol. Do a search for "ultra boiler photos" or go here
http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=61436&_#Message61436

Floyd_5

Actually.....

I have wondered....how many others that have problems with these boilers are watching, but don't have the intestinal fortitude to speak up.....
Yeah, we were a bit hard on you... guess we just couldn't believe that people would install something without "following the instructions"
These ain't your grandpa's boilers anymore...folks!

LEAD PIPE

Hard or not I'm

glad I found this place. Hopefully in the spring I will have New photos that will get a better responce.

F Reynolds

Ugh!

Ok just emailed WM (thanks Kal). I want to know if it is OK or not OK to have it piped this way. Black and white responses are the best for me. Gray areas frustrate me.

On a second not, Floyd, I don't know if it is the way you put your email address in the post or what, HOWEVER, your responses, when posted, do not get emailed to all interested parties. Maybe you should use the @ sign rather than spelling out "at". They just show up as a post, where everyone elses get emailed, from The Wall, to everyone’s computer. That is the "Notify me by e-mail about all messages posted in this topic" boxes that most usually check at the bottom of their post. ALSO YOU'ALL, I have received two computer viruses from people who have posted on the wall. I believe I know how it happened, but I'll save that for the Computer Forum. I have by the way, notified them they had a virus on their computer. Please do everyone and yourself a favor and sign up for, or get anti-virus software. How can I explain this..... Ok, it is nasty stuff that changes the ph of water in your boiler system and corrodes your pipes. Over time, you will have to replace every section of pipe and rads in your system. (It just does that to your computer). But don’t worry about them overall. I only received two.

F Reynolds

Double UGH

The more I read the manual, the more disappointed I'm getting. I stood right by the installer when he was draining water from the system. (My old boiler was there for at least 25 years) As black water was coming out of the system, I asked if he was going to flush it with clean water. He said No, that would take days. NOW the manual states that one must Clean the System to remove sediment. "You mush thoroughly flush the system (without the boiler connected) to remove sediment. The high-efficiency heat exchanger can be damaged by buildup or corrosion due to sediment." AM I JUST BEING UNREASONABLE OR SHOULD THIS HAVE BEEN DONE?

Kal Row

good idea

slow down and think, i wonder if dan holohan would weigh in on this, since he has a lot more knowlege of gravity conversion pitfalls - maybe email him directly

i attached you a diagram of what i think is should be
(2 formats)

Kal Row

it should have

been done, there is a special chemical for this, sold in supply houses - lots of brands - i do it - cause i'm to young to die

Kal Row

i forgot to mention.

i did not put flow-checks in the diagram - since i use pumps with intergrated check valves -

you dont need a flow-check on the boiler pump, cause you want the heat to convet into the system

instead of the 007, for 50$ more you can have a grundfoss 15-58fc which is a better pump, with higher starting torque, especially important for a sludged system, and it has three speeds so you can set it for what works best

grundofs pumps also have a cap on the moter end that you cant remove and start the motor up!!!

Kal Row

then again

he should have stuck to his guns and not given you an ultra, never let the customer tell you your job, as a part time pilot, if a pasenger wants to overload my plane or go into weather i dont feel comfortable with - i say no, saying no at the right time, can save a lot of people greif and even their lives - the number one cause of airplane fatalities is "I-got-to-get-there-i-tis"

so now i dont know what ethical bind you have over him - this is something for bigger people than me

F Reynolds

Question for HVAC Professionals

Considering all that has been said. Is it unreasonable, to ask my HVAC professional to redo the piping of the boiler (i.e. P/S piping, change configeration of air scoop, makeup water feed line, expansion tank), to flush out the system, and install another circulator on the primary and only zone? Should he do it? Should I share costs?

Please be conservative in your responses. This could have easily been one of you that a customer had a concern about, (not everyone is perfect), but I need to know if I'm out of line here. Again realize that my HVAC professional (company owner) has been very responsive to telephone calls I've made, and he has provided me with reasonable answers to my questions. I have really only asked him about the system pressure and placement of the expansion tank. I have been very satisfied with his customer service.

Kal, just got your email while I was typing this. His actual response was something to the effect of "I don't think you need that [to get efficiency]" additionally he said it had not been out long enough for him to be confident in the boiler. He did not say no.

So, back to the other. Did the installer, the guy who actually installed my system (the HVAC Company owner I deal with, who I happen to like very much, has not seen the installation) pipe my system incorrectly? Should I ask the owner to look at it and would it be reasonable to ask him to have it repiped.

I just don’t want someone telling me 5 years down that road that adding DHW to the system is going to cost me extra, because the piping is incorrect and they have to redo it, and I should have said something when it was installed incorrectly to start with. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, should I do something about this, and expect that something should be done?

Believe me, I am not mad about the situation. I’m only asking about fairness. I would still have this company do other work for me if needed.

Kal Row

ok

he piped it correctly for the old school of thought, which would be ok for a old cast iron boiler - it's a very forgiving environment
where we are not looking at the utmost in efficiency - (after all if you were, you would rip the old system out completely),
it's just not ok for the ultra and the high efficiency way of doing things - so the most you can expect of him is to redo it at cost off season or minimal profit now

not cleaning the system out first - thats his fault - and he can still do it - and set the water's PH

as for the boiler's maturity, - the boiler has been running at WM test sites for 15years - that long enough for him?, you dont think WM would stick the great name out, just like that? - at trade cost, i pay 1170 for a slant-fin sx150 and almost 1600 for a WM CGa-5 the equivalent boiler - people just dont pay more if they dont perceive it to be better (i personally happen to like the slant-fin)

Floyd_5

A question for Kal...

Have you or will you install radiant heat????

LEAD PIPE

If I were you I

would e-mail the pictures to W/M and ask if it was piped correctly. If they say no print it out and call your contractor. What can he say if W/M says it aint right? Thats what I did the first go around. He repiped it and said how Sh**ty the boiler was. I could call him back but I just don't want to deal with him, and I don't want him any where near my Ultra. I'm going to give it a shot myself, theres not that much involved.

LEAD PIPE

sorry dbl post

carry on

Kal Row

dbl-click got you too eh?

Kal Row

besides repair work on radiant ,

radiant is a really a new thing for me, and this one is commercial - (baptisim by fire) - and will probably take a bank of ultra's - and i'm looking at snow-melt also, (but i have the good sense to do that with a flat plate heat ex)

now you know why i was so happy to hear about WM and tekmar i am a tekmar person,

this system will have the works, including DMH and large insulated water holding tank, it has multiple types of loads from coils in the ventilation system, to a pool heater type application, with high/low mixing zones - it may even have different type of heat sources like an oil-burner - as i diagram it out i have to decide whether to use different boilers for each application - or to put all the eggs in one basket - well is not altogether in one basket since the ac system has gas heat in it too

we are talking well over 2 million btu for all loads - and there will be multiple heat sources - if you are running large high temp loads continously,
you cant beat oil economy - even with an ultra

will let y'all know when it happens - it's still early in the contracting stage - i'm not in Kansas any more - and i wont do it all myself - though i will be ultimately responsible, i dont trust me or anyone else for that matter - i am going to see if the customer will budget having someone like ziggi go over the whole thing

Kal Row

opps

wm's matt downs was nice enough to point out, that i reversed the inlet and outlet on the ultra -
attached is the corrected ver

F Reynolds

Thanks Kal

I may have forget to tell you. Thanks for contacting Matt at WM. Just got off the phone with him, he was very helpful. Lots of good things coming with the Ultra. I'm glad I purchased one. Thanks for all the help and assistance with my concerns. Seems we have quite a string going here. Reynz

Kal Row

i told you

they have too good a name and have too much invested to let you fail


about my diagrams - i didnt put in all the isolation and drains i usually have in my stuff - it would have been too messy - but in my systems - you can practically isolate anything and drain any part

also - did he recomend a particular band of preflush chemical, thats safe, even after the install?

F Reynolds

Flush

No, I'll be relying on my HVAC Professional......

However, did you have any suggestions?

F Reynolds

BIG, BIG CORRECTION FOR LEADPIPE

Lead, you said

"Now this just means that the main circ is running all the time, right? It will just be pulling water through the boiler loop not throught the zones how does this help anything?"

I was absolutely wrong. You are correct. Changing your boiler loop circulator to constant circulation will probably do nothing. Remember, when we discussed this, I had no idea it was REQUIRED to be piped primary/sceondary and that there was anything called a boiler loop. I don't have one of those, I only have one huge loop leaving and returning to my boiler with only one circulator. I've learned so much from this discussion. The only circulator you want running constantly is the circulator on the zones, but you have many zones, and if you left them all running, you electric bill would probably be higher than you gas or oil bill. Oh, my HVAC profession will repipe my system.... Sorry for the discussion about constant circulation. I didn't know what I was talking about...

F Reynolds

Double CLick, sorry